Can Consecrated Ground be moved away from the cleric?

[Penthau]

I have some fellow players who are telling me that consecrated ground cannot be moved further from the cleric that the close range of the burst. To me, the text is clear that the intent is to allow it to be moved around on the battlefield. I think that the key phrase is "can move the origin square", which seems to separate it from the cleric. Otherwise, wouldn't they have just made it a zone that moves with the cleric since he would have had to stay in the center?

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Standard Action Close burst 1
Effect: The burst creates a zone of sanctified ground that lasts until the end of your next turn. You can move the origin square of the zone 3 squares as a move action. Enemies that start their turns within the zone take 1d6 + your Charisma modifier radiant damage. You and any allies who are bloodied and start their turns within the zone regain hit points equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There has been a lot of debate about this power over the "years". The problem is there is no range associated with a close burst power and its a movable zone which means one square of the zone has to be in range of you at the end of your turn. In other words, the rules are borked on this power.

There are several interpretations I've seen put forward:

1) You simply can't move the thing, it has a range of 0 and thus can only follow the cleric around and WotC needs to rewrite the power to make it work different.

2) It has a range of 1 and the cleric needs to be within the zone at the end of his turn or it ends.

3) It has a "range" of effectively infinity and you can simply move it anywhere you want.

Three is probably RAI and is as well supported by the rules as anything, but it will end up varying from table to table.

 

[DracoSuave]

You can move it, but by the end of your turn you have to be in range of the power (i.e. occupying the burst.) If you move outside the burst, you can move the burst to you so you occupy it.

Moveable conjurations check for lack of range at the end of the turn in which you move it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You can move it, but by the end of your turn you have to be in range of the power (i.e. occupying the burst.) If you move outside the burst, you can move the burst to you so you occupy it.

Moveable conjurations check for lack of range at the end of the turn in which you move it.

Sure, but bursts don't HAVE a range. They have a size. Only ranged and area powers have ranges. Close attacks only have burst/blast sizes and Melee attacks really aren't germane to movable zones.

In other words Consecrated Ground isn't range 1, its "undefined range" because its a close attack power and thus has only a size, which is not the same thing.

This is why my argument #3 works. The range of CG is undefined, thus it cannot fail the test for being out of range at the end of the caster's turn. The argument that it has a range of 1 is common, but it is really the weakest position to take from the standpoint of RAW. 0 and "effectively unlimited" are equally good readings of the rules, but 0 doesn't really make a lot of sense if you ask me.

 

[Markn]

Agreed AA. I am amazed that this power has not been in a FAQ or erratta'd to clean up the wording.

 

[eamon]

There are several interpretations I've seen put forward:

1) You simply can't move the thing, it has a range of 0 and thus can only follow the cleric around and WotC needs to rewrite the power to make it work different.

2) It has a range of 1 and the cleric needs to be within the zone at the end of his turn or it ends.

3) It has a "range" of effectively infinity and you can simply move it anywhere you want.

Three is probably RAI and is as well supported by the rules as anything, but it will end up varying from table to table.

I basically agree with you, but I think you're mixing up (1) and (2) slightly. A moveable zone ends when you aren't within range of any square of the zone.

A close burst X is "kinda like" an area burst X with range 0 - which is option (1). But under this assumption, you'd need any one square of the zone to remain within range 0 - i.e., the cleric would need to end anywhere inside the zone, which is your conclusion for option (2).

You could ask CS: this is a pretty straightforward question on which I'd trust they're better informed than any of us as to the intent.

My speculation as to why this wasn't FAQ'd or updated: well, there are a bunch of oddly written powers like this in PHB1 - so the list of minor errata would get pretty big. Clearly, the game was less mature back then ;-).

 

[Mesh Hong]

Here I go again blundering into a rules discussion with my own niave charm.

Standard Action Close burst 1
Effect: The burst creates a zone of sanctified ground that lasts until the end of your next turn. You can move the origin square of the zone 3 squares as a move action. Enemies that start their turns within the zone take 1d6 + your Charisma modifier radiant damage. You and any allies who are bloodied and start their turns within the zone regain hit points equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
Sustain minor: the zone persists (missing from original quote)

I really don't see the problem with understanding this power, other than like a lot of cleric powers it is very powerful.

I will break it down:-

Standard Action Close burst 1
Effect: The burst creates a zone of sanctified ground that lasts until the end of your next turn.

Very clear. It creates a zone, close burst 1 with the caster as the origin square, that lasts until the end of the casters next turn.

You can move the origin square of the zone 3 squares as a move action.

Very clear. You can move the zone up to 3 squares as a move action. The origin square is the centre square.

Enemies that start their turns within the zone take 1d6 + your Charisma modifier radiant damage. You and any allies who are bloodied and start their turns within the zone regain hit points equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

Very clear. Applied effects for enemies and allies that start their turn inside zone.

Sustain minor: the zone persists

Very clear. Caster spends a minor action on his turn or the zone ends at the end of his turn.

I simply don't see what the problem is with understanding the power. It is created with the caster at its origin, then it can be moved 3 squares as a move action. The zone can be moved anywhere you like, there doesn't need to be anyone in the zone for it to function, but it only has an effect on allies or enemies that start their turn inside it. This power has nothing at all to do with range or conjurations, it is a movable zone, minor action to sustain.

now I take a deep breath and wait for a bunch of replies telling me that logically reading and following a power description is utter wrong.....again

 

[eamon]

now I take a deep breath and wait for a bunch of replies telling me that logically reading and following a power description is utter wrong.....again

Your reading is fine. You're just missing a bit of the general rules on zones...

PHB p. 59: If a power allows you to move a zone, at least one square that the zone covers must remain within the power's range. If you move far enough away from a zone that it is no longer in range, its effects immediately end.
​

which was updated by...

The PHB2 p. 222 rules update: At the end of your turn, the movable zone ends if you are not within range of at least 1 square of it (using the power's range) [...]​

The interaction with these general rules on movable zones is in question.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Your reading is fine. You're just missing a bit of the general rules on zones...

PHB p. 59: If a power allows you to move a zone, at least one square that the zone covers must remain within the power's range. If you move far enough away from a zone that it is no longer in range, its effects immediately end.
​

which was updated by...

The PHB2 p. 222 rules update: At the end of your turn, the movable zone ends if you are not within range of at least 1 square of it (using the power's range) [...]
​

The interaction with these general rules on movable zones is in question.

Ah right, I now fully understand where all the confusion is comming from. With regard to applying the two additional rules I would propose either:-

1: Ignore them and run the power as written. (specific power trumps general rules, and it is nice and simple)

or

2: Change consecrated ground from a burst 1 power to an area burst 1 within 10 power. (this would give you the range requirement to satisfy the rules, and would mean that using the power provoked opportunity attacks which would very very very slightly weaken a powerful power)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah right, I now fully understand where all the confusion is comming from. With regard to applying the two additional rules I would propose either:-

1: Ignore them and run the power as written. (specific power trumps general rules, and it is nice and simple)

or

2: Change consecrated ground from a burst 1 power to an area burst 1 within 10 power. (this would give you the range requirement to satisfy the rules, and would mean that using the power provoked opportunity attacks which would very very very slightly weaken a powerful power)

Except giving it a range of 10 would increase its power. Probably not a lot really, but there are always those oddball cases where it would be a lot more useful.

FWIW I think you can move it anywhere and the "naive" reading is perfectly good. It just didn't mesh well with the general rules.