Can someone explain?

[Voadam]

I think Mkletch's idea of size modifiers affecting reflex and fortitude saves is a great idea.

However, I think the reason dragons have good reflex saves is so that they have the best of everything. As a type they have the best BAB, d12 HD and all good saves. Specific dragons also have high natural armor, SR, sorcerer spells, gross stats (except dex)and good natural weapons.

The good reflex save makes them quick and nimble about avoiding damage.

I don't think it would detract from the mythic or iconic view of dragons to give them poor reflex saves and have them rely upon their toughness and magical qualities as their best defenses. For most dragons I don't think of otters of the air but grossly tough magical dinosaurs that may be quick but not dodge oriented. Tiny dragonettes, slim drakes, or the luck dragon from _the Neverending story_ may be different but most dragons I think of Smaug or the Norse ones which I view as less nimble.

 

[Voadam]

consistency of rules

I also disagree with Mkletch that a poor reflex save advancement would be inconsistent with the rules because dragons have High Hit Dice. A high HD creature with poor reflex advancement will still be better off mechanically than a low HD creature with good advancement. The key question here is should a dragon (as a type) be as good at dodging as at shrugging off attacks. The high con versus 10 dex of most dragons affects this but it is only a modifier to a core attribute of a type.

 

[xjp]

Yes, I agree. It is a matter of mechanics, don't try to rationalize it. Feel free to adjust the reflex save(or anything else).

 

[GuardianLurker]

Why good reflexes saves?

It's not because the hulking death-machine is preternaturally quick (though they probably should be relatively quick for their size) - reflex saves are more than just quickness. They also represent a form of "danger sense" (for lack of a better term), and just sheer out-right luck.

With their keen senses, blindsight, and highly magical nature, dragons pretty much peg the latter two aspects of a reflex save.

Or, at least, that's my take on it.

 

[333 Dave]

Or you could just say "Hey, the name of the game is Dungeons & DRAGONS, so dragons have to be the toughest ******* in the game!"
Really, I'm sure if the game were called Dungeons & Trolls then trolls would be the toughest monster type. But its not, it's Dungeons & Dragons.

 

[Numion]

Nice sounding logic, Num, it doesn't hold up though.

10 foot ball of lighting aimed strait at human, human has to move a mere 5 feet 1 inch to dodge it. (Assuming it's strait at the human, less otherwise).

10 foot ball of lighting aimed at the center of a 40 foot dragon, the 40 foot dragon has to move 20 (half of their total size) feet + the additional 5 feet 1 inch to dodge it.

If your wizard is aiming at it's feet your wizard is stupid and should be put out of his misery

I don't care how fast the barn is moving, I still have an easier target in it's broadside than the broadside of a human moving at a similar speed.

I was saying that it isn't any more difficult for the dragon to move itself half it's body's length than it is for human. One step for human is 5ft. One step for dragon should proportionally, what, 30ft? Point being: the dragon is just a sideways step away for dodging the lightning bolt, which human isn't; he has to take several steps.

Think about it light this: Would the 6ft human have more trouble dodging a 1 ft lightning bolt than a 10ft LB? For you see, if you scaled the the 60ft dragon to 6ft, then the LB would be only 1ft across... the area spells are pretty small from the dragons POV, and it's easier to dodge small than large objects, right?

Ok, it didn't come of as clear, but still.

 

[Darkness]

Moved to Rules.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

#1: A human dodging a lightning bolt has to move 5 ft (1/6th of his move). A dragon doing the same thing has to move 20 ft (1/10th of his flying move). Most dragons don't fight on the ground, at least not IMC. (This analogy breaks down when you see a 30 ft. move rogue outdodging a 60 ft. move monk, but this is just one explanation. It's also just my opinion.)

#2: A Dex of 10 is pretty high for a Colossal creature. A human of that size would have a Dex of about 3...

 

[EOL]

Coming along somewhat late in the discussion it seems, but under most examples of making a reflex save I've seen there seems to be some element of protecting your head with your arms or diving behind a table or hiding behind the fight (who has poor reflex saves ) So the dragons all have these massive wings perhaps in a situation requiring a reflex save they use these to provide some sort of cover to places like thier head and such. The save mechanic still fits in nicely because it represents how difficult it is to interpose a wing.

In general I think there are lots of actions tied in with a reflex save that break down when subjected to some kind of realist dissection, but I'm not sure this is one of them.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I don't view dragons as having good reflex saves but it doesn't bother me that much that they do. There are plenty of other things I would of done differently with dragons as well, but oh well. Personally I would fo prefered low reflex saves but with lots more protection v things relfex saves would protect against.