Can the First Aid Skill "Use Second Wind" be used on unconscious characters?

[MarkB]

Hi,

Sorry if I'm being dim here, but is there any need to stabliise a dying character first before triggering their second wind?

It doesn't look like there is, which means the stabilise the dying action (First Aid p.185) is only necessary if the dying PC doesn't have a second wind left, correct? The PC is still unconscious but is no longer dying and can be brought back to 1hp even if he has no surges left when his second wind reboots during a short rest.

Thanks


Richard

Yes, you've got it entirely right.

 

[keterys]

I'm actually a bit surprised they didn't go with something like 'The target may spend a healing surge and their Second Wind is now considered used' so that it wasn't an unconscious person 'using' something at all, since that does prompt discussions like this one.

 

[Seule]

Far as I can tell, the reason that healing potions heal a flat amount rather than an amount based on your second wind is so that they don't scale to higher levels. At Paragon tier and up the cost of a healing potion is trivial, you could easily buy hundreds, so the system expects you to buy the higher level versions instead to keep the monetary cost in the range where you'll notice it. Otherwise you might was well just allow unlimited second winds while healing surges last.

--Penn

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Then consider the fact that, unless you're a dwarf, using your Second Wind costs you your standard action that round. In many cases, unless you're literally about to drop, you'd be better off spending it pounding the enemy some more, because the sooner you drop them, the less damage they're going to inflict upon you and your allies.

this mirrors my experience with second wind. Other than dwarves it tends to be reserved for the pc who is "trapped" in some way where his current hit points are very low and the odds of someone getting him out of the current situation before he takes unconscious damage is very small. I'll sometimes take a second wind with my mage when I'm adjacent to a melee creature and don't want to prompt an OA, as swinging my staff with 8 strength is frequently not that strong an option. My at wills are scorching burst and ray of frost because my dm likes to run away with the loot and ray can prevent that. I would prefer to opt for thunderwave, though I've been mulling over fast runner and retraining to wave for a while, I also have a few close encounter powers and magic items. The only problem with scorching and wave is hitting individual targets our rogue and fighter are flanking, this partly doesn't matter since by the time they only have one bad guy standing I don't really have to contribute that much.

Moving on, the question was brought up during the said encounter where the players think it might be a good idea to *never* use your Second Wind, just in case you go down and can't be revived with it. Personally I think that's a crazy idea, but it got me thinking that they could have a point. It's quite a gamble but I suppose it's a 'tactic' of sorts. As a player, there's no way I'd risk that if I had the choice, but has anyone else considered doing this??

Interesting tactic. I wasn't aware of the revive via heal until I read this thread. But second wind will revive you from anywhere short of - bloody and put you at 25% hp which isn't bad so there is a strong argument that saving it is pretty smart.

..and it's a hard lesson to take to heart. I *hate* to see fellow PCs go down, even though I know they're still relatively safe from death. (Of course, if you've got a trigger-happy wizard in your party, the downed PC is likely one mis-placed Scorching Burst away from negative H.S. death.)

Me too, we normally play with 4 pc's so keeping everyone standing is very important. We had an encounter recently where I was in negative hitpoints and had ongoing 5 taking me precariously close to negative bloodied. The cleric was not only stunned but in the grip of a grell with nearly no chance to escape as his acrobatics and athletics are not very good. Things looked bleak until we got a lucky roll on the grell beak attack.

This just means that hit points are not the only measure of long you can fight. If somebody only has one or two healing surges, they're physically fine and ready to fight, but if they get hit very much they won't be able to bounce back.

This is our deciding factor in pressing forward. 3 surges minimum. We've had fights that burn up 5 surges for one guy so even this is dangerous but going on when you're below 3 surges is asking for trouble unless you're pressed for time.

Our party uses healing potions quite liberally, even with two leaders in the party. Generally, we try to conserve our better healing powers and second wind for when we are bloodied or when someone is in dire straits, so we use the potions to blunt attacks or in expectation of taking damage. For example, last night, I was down probably 15 hit points and I was about to get rocked by some giant spiders, so I downed a potion with my minor action in expectation of the attack (which did come).

We try to save our healing potions until after the encounter powers are spent just because finding new ones is quite difficult but we spend a big chunk of our gold pursuing healing potions.

Far as I can tell, the reason that healing potions heal a flat amount rather than an amount based on your second wind is so that they don't scale to higher levels. At Paragon tier and up the cost of a healing potion is trivial, you could easily buy hundreds, so the system expects you to buy the higher level versions instead to keep the monetary cost in the range where you'll notice it. Otherwise you might was well just allow unlimited second winds while healing surges last.

--Penn

Exactly right. This is a mechanic designed to part pc's from their gold while giving decent healing options at each tier. The enormous jump in price when compared to jump in utility coupled with the healing surge mechanic prevents anyone from using a potion that is costed for a lower level group effectively. It's actually kind of an elegant solution to money making pc's nearly unkillable.

 

[Legildur]

This is our deciding factor in pressing forward. 3 surges minimum. We've had fights that burn up 5 surges for one guy so even this is dangerous but going on when you're below 3 surges is asking for trouble unless you're pressed for time.

I play the sole striker (artful dodger rogue) in a party of 6. By relying on flanking, he needs to use a lot of surges and consequently often enters battles with no surges remaining. It's either that or the entire party has to take an extended rest when they often still have 5+ surges remaining.

Of course, he's not as 'brave' with no surges.

The Toughness and Extra Surges (name?) feats are looking tempting, as well as a stat bump for Con.

 

[Oompa]

If you may use a surge or second wind, you start adding HP as if you were 0 hp.

So at -23, you gain 10 hp, you would be on 10..