Can the gods strip a paladin of his class?

[Agback]

G'day

In the many and interminable threads that discuss whether a paladin ought to lose his or her paladin class abilities for having done something-or-other (and yes, I do my part to make them interminable) we often see many posters either posting that the decision depends on what the paladin's god wants, or that it depends on the code that the god requires of his or her paladins. Some even expressly write of the gods stripping their paladins of powers--sometimes of suspending particular powers without taking away the whole package, in an arbitrary fashion. My question: "Is this supported by the rules as written?"

I suspect not, because of the following:

1) The core rules allow a character to be a paladin without worshipping or serving any god at all. This argues that paladinhood is something that lawful good characters can generate for themselves. Becoming a paladin is accepting a metaphorical call, accepting a destiny.

2) LG gods can give cleric spells to LN and NG characters, but can't make them paladins. LN gods can give cleric spells to LN, N, and NE characters, NG gods to NG, N, and CG characters--but can't give them paladin powers. This argues that paladinhood is not subject to the whim of the gods.

3) The paladin class description makes no mention of paladinhood being bestowed by the gods or of gods taking it away. There is no more support for them doing this than for them taking away a sorceror's sorcerorhood.

4) The section on ex-Clerics says that clerics lose their spells if they grossly violate the code of conduct expected by their god. But the corresponding section on ex-paladins mentions grossly violating 'the code of conduct'--no mention is made of it being determined or judged by a god.

Is there anything in the rules that I am missing?

Regards,


Agback

Postscript

For the purposes of this thread I am not particularly interested in learning about either people's house rules or about special provisions for particular settings, published or home-brew. I want to find out whether there is anything in the [current] rules of D&D that says that a paladin's paladiny powers are the gift of his or her god or persist during the pleasure of his or her god, or that the god has the power to judge, dispense, suspend, or waive the alignment and behavioural restrictions on paladins.

 

[blaine_evans]

first of all: a cleric of a deity cannot be TN unless the deity is also TN.

back to the topic: in greyhawk, the path of a paladin can be by choice or touched/chosen by the gods. if the latter happens, the deity will strip the paladins power if he/she does not abide by the deity's code of life.

an example of this would be heironeous: stereotypically, they will be valorous, upstanding, defend the helpless type people. if the paladin won't do that, then heironeous will not have anything to do with him/her and strip them of their power.

a paladin by choice has another code of conduct to follow. parts of it is in the alignments chapter of the PhB, and stuff like "don't use poison" "don't kill innocents"... and so fourth.

a paladin by choice can also (if allowed) write his own code of conduct and give it to the GM. then it goes to the GM if the player is abiding by that code.

in short, deities only strip power from paladins if the paladin reveres a deity. otherwise, it's up to the GM.

blaine.

 

[Shellman]

IMO,

Well since a Paladin casts divine/ profane spells I would at least say that what ever his chosen deity is, they can at least strip the paladin of his ability to cast spells, as well as his ability to smite.

 

[Agback]

Well since a Paladin casts divine/ profane spells I would at least say that what ever his chosen deity is, they can at least strip the paladin of his ability to cast spells, as well as his ability to smite.

Possibly. But a paladin still gets to cast divine spells even if he or she has no god to begin with. This suggests that paladins don't need gods' help to get divine spells.

 

[Agback]

first of all: a cleric of a deity cannot be TN unless the deity is also TN.

Good point. My mistake.

in short, deities only strip power from paladins if the paladin reveres a deity. otherwise, it's up to the GM.

That's a Greyhawk variant rule, right? There's probably something similar in Faerûn, too, since there you can't be a paladin without a god. But nothing in the core rules?

 

[Lord Wyrm]

I don't run paladins who serve one god in particular, BUT the gods do watch.

One notable example of such is a paladin slaying a child who he believed to be possessed, my diety of wisdom took offense and sent an astral deva to talk with him. After getting hit once by the deva he quickly set about getting the child raised.

Paladins don't outright lose powers for annoying gods in my campaign, but they had best watch themselves.

 

[Agback]

I don't run paladins who serve one god in particular, BUT the gods do watch.

Is it a feature of the paladin class that the gods watch (and nag) them? Or do the gods also watch, for example, clerics, sorcerors, and rogues? And if so, why? I would have thought that paladins are teh class that needs least supervision--they are dependably lawful and good, and if they do evil things the problem is self-correcting.

 

[Lord Wyrm]

It's sad but the gods seem to pick on the paladins in my game. Paladins are lawful and good like devils are lawful and evil, but the devils are under magical compulsion to behave themselves, paladins need supervison from the lords on high. Then again if someone of power from another class acts up thats when the gods send in the paladins.

 

[irdeggman]

From the SRD:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

Notice the entire lack of mention of any deity involvement. While a common perception (mostly a carry over from 2nd ed IMO) there is no requirement to have a deity - only a code of conduct. IMO this should be compatable with the paladin's diety (if he has one) but it is not a requirement.

 

[Anubis]

If the paladin woprhips a deity, then yes, the deity can strip him of paladinhood. If the paladin reveres a set of ideals, however, then, no, no deity could strip him of paladinhood, although the same rules do apply if he violates the paladin code of honor.