D&D (2024) Can we have a discussion about the assumptions we make in terms of balance?


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MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
You can’t. Best you can do is edit it.
Ehh crap. I accidentally pressed OK in the middle of a half written reply so I had to edit my original comment away to avoid people responding to something incomplete...
So your position is that the Fighter is not effective at what the Fighter is being chosen for, by the most people, for a game near 10 years old, with a metric naughty word ton of analysis, for a segment of the population (gamers) who are notoriously good at optimizing the fun out of the games they play?
Argumentum ad populum.

And secondly: Check some fighter optimisation guides. Champion isn't high on those lists. You'll find Battlemaster and Echo Knight, though.

Champion is pretty much an empty subclass. It basically doesn't have class features.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
So let's ignore social stuff entirely and just toss that down the garbage chute it no longer belongs here gone forever.

Imagine trying to climb over an obstacle with athletics, or just use: Dimension Door, Misty Step, Fly, Spider Climb

Imagine trying to cross a pit or ravine trying to get a rope across, or just cast: Dimension Door, Misty Step, Fly, Spider Climb, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone.

Imagine trying to get somewhere far away by riding there, or just cast: Teleport.

Imagine trying to block a passage building a barricade, or just cast: Wall of Force, Wall of Stone

And contrast this with the pathetic level fighter 20 which has no higher movement speed unless he specifically spent feats to do so, something which a caster does not need to do. I mean no wizard will skip out on Dimension Door, Misty Step and Fly.

The Echo Knight is sort of good at some of these because of the teleportation ability. Champion? Absolute trash.
  • Misty step
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, circle of the land (coast), Paladin (oath of the ancients), Paladin (oath of vengance)
  • Dimension Door
    • Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard, Cleric (Trickery Domain), Paladin (oath of vengance)
  • Fly
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, artificer
  • Spider Climb
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, artificer, Druid circle of the land (forest), druid circle of the land(mountain, druid Circle of the land(underdark)
  • Wall of force
    • wizard, Paladin (oath of redemption), artificer (artillerist), artificer (armorer)
  • Wall of stone
    • Druid, sorcerer, wizard, artificer, druid(circle of the land desert), Druid (circle of the land mountain), sorcerer (genie)
So?... Other than drawing on old white room issues of past editions by continuing to beat on 5e wizard for 3.5 wizard strength why are you talking about wizard specifically?
 
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Scribe

Legend
  • Misty step
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, circle of the land (coast), Paladin (oath of the ancients), Paladin (oath of vengance)
  • Dimension Door
    • Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard, Cleric (Trickery Domain), Paladin (oath of vengance)
  • Fly
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, artificer
  • Spider Climb
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, artificer, Druid circle of the land (forest), druid circle of the land(mountain, druid Circle of the land(underdark)
  • Wall of force
    • wizard, Paladin (oath of redemption), artificer (artillerist), artificer (armorer)
  • Wall of stone
    • Druid, sorcerer, wizard, artificer, druid(circle of the land desert), Druid (circle of the land mountain), sorcerer (genie)
So?... Other than drawing on old issues of past editions by continuing to beat on 5e wizard for 3.5 wizard strength why are you talking about wizard specifically?

And how many various species options for some of these things exist? Misty Step, and Fly, and I'm pretty sure Spider Climb are covered, at least.
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
Imo, some things you can say are good or bad pretty much regardless of the game. The Champion subclass, for example, doesn't add all that much to the character, the increase in crit range isn't that big, and crits in 5e aren't too strong if you don't have a lot of dice to add, like a Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, or even a Barbarian later on.

Then there are things that depend on every game, like only healing when an ally is at 0 hp. Sometimes it'll be great, unless the DM attacks unconscious characters, then it's suicide. A lot of assumptions also rely on the stats of official monsters, like their AC, saves, resistances, and such, which don't matter as much if you're only facing homebrew enemies from 3rd party books or ones the DM made themselves.
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
  • Misty step
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, circle of the land (coast), Paladin (oath of the ancients), Paladin (oath of vengance)
  • Dimension Door
    • Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard, Cleric (Trickery Domain), Paladin (oath of vengance)
  • Fly
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, artificer
  • Spider Climb
    • Sorcerer, warlock, wizard, artificer, Druid circle of the land (forest), druid circle of the land(mountain, druid Circle of the land(underdark)
  • Wall of force
    • wizard, Paladin (oath of redemption), artificer (artillerist), artificer (armorer)
  • Wall of stone
    • Druid, sorcerer, wizard, artificer, druid(circle of the land desert), Druid (circle of the land mountain), sorcerer (genie)
So?... Other than drawing on old white room issues of past editions by continuing to beat on 5e wizard for 3.5 wizard strength why are you talking about wizard specifically?
I deliberately picked wizard because it's not a charisma class, and then I deliberately picked non-social type spells because someone was complaining about class comparisons always focusing on social skills or something.

So clarification:

A wizard gets better at everything when they level up. You have noticed that every spell I listed was a higher level spell. It's something they could not do at a first level. This too was deliberate. The champion, by contrast, doesn't get better as they level up. They barely gain any features and nothing they do changes their capabilities in a radical way.
 

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