Can you have out of body experiences?

[Arduin's]

They do. All the time. Millions of people across the world look at evidence and come to their own conclusions. They call themselves "scientists".

Correct. I am a scientist and that is part and parcel to our training.

 

[Kramodlog]

Oh, well, I'm not trying to convince him, in particular. I'm giving an alternate view for those in the audience who are sitting on the fence.

I think I've backed my assertion pretty well, by noting how pretty much any technology that's come up after the Renaissance comes out of science. Cars, airplanes, telephones, electrically powered anything, computers, modern medicine... that's not enough affirmation that it works? Geeze, tough crowd.

It's a bit circular. It works cause it produces result and the results prove that it works.

 

[sabrinathecat]

Correct. I am a scientist and that is part and parcel to our training.

So, as a scientist, if someone comes to you with a claim, but can't back it up, offers not proof, and/or refuses to site sources, what would you do with that claim?

Who were these psychics you met back in '05? What were you doing when you met them? What were they doing (specifically)?
Can you show us any scientifically respected published paper specifically proving ESP, Out-of-Body experience, Remote viewing or Psychometry?

 

[Arduin's]

So, as a scientist, if someone comes to you with a claim, but can't back it up, offers not proof, and/or refuses to site sources, what would you do with that claim?

Depends on the claim. If someone claimed tht they drove to work yesterday I'd do nothing.

Who were these psychics you met back in '05? What were you doing when you met them? What were they doing (specifically)?

The names are protected by Fed statute. Anyone who has any decent EDU knows that those type of agents have that protection. What was I doing? I was instructing DoD & CIA on anti-terror strategy.

Can you show us any scientifically respected published paper specifically proving ESP, Out-of-Body experience, Remote viewing or Psychometry?

No, why would I? That isn't the scientific method. AND, I never made a claim as such. BUT, the wording of this question tells me in no uncertain terms that YOU actually lack a college degree in ANY scientific discipline.

When you figure out how I was able to ascertain that fact from a simple question you posed. Get back to me. BUT, not before then as you wil just waste my time.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

True story - the body of work in 'science' is many and varied. It contains, among other things, theories which cannot be tested, never mind repeated, without jumping billions of years into the future (or the past). Much of what is accepted as canon is speculation expressed through mathematics. Quite how parallel universes are accepted, for example, when they are not provable in any way, when paranormal phenomenon like out of body expreience has a huge body of research and evidence to back it up... is what is called a /double standard/.

You'll never agree to this, despite it being true, so this is an utterly pointless discussion.

Do you have any links to any studies that prove out of body experiences?

 

[sabrinathecat]

The names are protected by Fed statute. Anyone who has any decent EDU knows that those type of agents have that protection. What was I doing? I was instructing DoD & CIA on anti-terror strategy.



No, why would I? That isn't the scientific method. AND, I never made a claim as such. BUT, the wording of this question tells me in no uncertain terms that YOU actually lack a college degree in ANY scientific discipline.

When you figure out how I was able to ascertain that fact from a simple question you posed. Get back to me. BUT, not before then as you wil just waste my time.

So, either you missed my point, or ignored it. You are claiming to have worked with psychics employed by the federal government. That's a pretty extraordinary claim. You offer no way for us to confirm or verify that. In fact, you state that you cannot verify that.

Oh, so rather than support your claims, you switch to attacking the other person? Not the weakest of arguments, but certainly one that shows a weak hand.

Can you point us to any respected scientific publication suggesting or implying that telepathy, ESP, psychometry, remote viewing, or other such "supernatural" abilities actually exist? How about anything that confirms that any law enforcement or intelligence agency actually does employ such gifted individuals? Proof that they exist or have successfully solved/prevented any cases?

Scientific method is what would be used to compile such a paper or study, not to defend an argument. Internet links or other references could confirm your claims.

So far, you are full of claims, but have yet to back one of them up.

 

[Janx]

True story - the body of work in 'science' is many and varied. It contains, among other things, theories which cannot be tested, never mind repeated, without jumping billions of years into the future (or the past). Much of what is accepted as canon is speculation expressed through mathematics. Quite how parallel universes are accepted, for example, when they are not provable in any way, when paranormal phenomenon like out of body expreience has a huge body of research and evidence to back it up... is what is called a /double standard/.

You'll never agree to this, despite it being true, so this is an utterly pointless discussion.

Parallel universes is accepted? [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] can probably clarify that.

Even Theories are still held with a taint of dubiousness, that's why they are classified as Theory. The only thing truly accepted as irrefutable are Laws.

As I found in some other thread, it's faulty logic to assume that just because you can't see it, that physics hasn't been proven to be true by virtue of the calculated outcomes and the actual final results. We can't see an actual electron. But all the physics math calculated a ton of things that proved the model worked when they invented things like transistors that relied on its effects.

So, as I said about dumb people before, I don't understand the math. Umbran is smarter than me. I accept that the math and theory must be right, not because Umbran is smarter than me, but because ultimately, he can demonstate that the math models how things work, and that when he does Y, it will cause X to happen. Every time. He can predict the outcome because of the math. Whether I understand it or not.

Ideally, folks like Bill Nye come along to dumb it down for the rest of us. And honestly, Umbran does that service on this forum.

But the difference is, Umbran's Physics powers can be proven by virtue of the tests that be performed that result in real world measurable outcomes.

 

[Janx]

Has it occurred to you that maybe you are the one being deceived?

If all this paranormal research has reached scientific proof, why is it not in the news. You claim "double standard" is in effect, but why?
Yes, huge volumes of research have been done. Do they Prove the existence of what you are claiming, or simply support the possibility.
Take the occam's razor test. Does it really seem likely that the entire field of science and media are out to suppress what has been folklore for centuries? That all those people are calling it bunk? Or could it be that the phenomenon could not be proven or verified under laboratory conditions, and was therefore shoved aside into at best Fringe science?

I concur.

I'm inclined to think that if any of this wierd stuff existed, scientists would be all over it. Not to hide it, but to figure it out. it would be a marvel of nature, and scientists generally are in awe of the universe in whatever aspect they focus on. That's why they devote their lives to it.

 

[kingius]

Do you have any links to any studies that prove out of body experiences?

No or we wouldn't be having this conversation. What we have instead are vast amount of research into the subject matter, collecting thousands of reports over decades, coupled with out of body experiences being reported in the historical archives... and even into prehistory with myth and so on. In terms of scientific burden of proof, this is normally regarded as being insufficient. But you have to look at the context to understand why and I'll get to that.

Many other things that science accepts has much less evidence for it (or none at all), or may even be utterly unprovable and yet still stands as part of the established body of science. This type of double standard needs to be critically examined because it is a sign that something else is at work and that is an agenda.

I reach a conclusion, which to me is obvious as it is shocking; science cannot look beyond the philosophy of materialism no matter what. This is similar to how classical physicists could not get their heads around quantum theory and tried to get rid of it. They weren't very successful in that though, they were dead wrong. That generation of scientists has now died out.

Todays materialists are hampering scientific progress by claiming that their way of viewing the world is the only true way. To do this they have to misdirect people away from anything that suggests otherwise. They are going to go the way of the old classical physicists because ultimately, the truth about reality itself, like the truth about anything, can only be concealed for so long. Eventually, science finds the truth of the matter, but it will be the mavericks on the fringe that do it, not the establishment.

 

[kingius]

I'm inclined to think that if any of this wierd stuff existed, scientists would be all over it. Not to hide it, but to figure it out.

This is a noble thought. The problem that scientists have is that they cannot reproduce these phenonoma in a way that works with the scientific method. Hence they are not all over it. The researchers in to these matters have to take the phenonoma on its terms in order to 'figure it out'. These are hard subjects on the limits of human knowledge that just won't play the way we want them to. Perhaps our faith in science in these matters is unjustified; like how you have to go into the wild to observe a wild animal's natural behaviour (as an example), scientists, by and large, don't seem to understand not all things to be studied are necessarily equal. Perhaps our faith in them is justified; the scientists on the fringe, the mavericks, they are likely to be ones who make the break throughs, as history shows us, because they are not constrained by the same thinking as everyone else. Something to think about.