Can you Power Attack with a melee touch attack?

[RigaMortus2]

I guess I am getting confused on the whole "spell damage" and "melee damage" thing. I've never heard the term "melee damage" used before. I would figure that melee damage is damag that is inflicted using a melee attack or melee weapon. What is an armed strike (armed because of the spell charge being held) with the hand, if not a melee attack with a melee weapon? When you make the attack roll, do you use your Str or Dex score and add it to your Base Attack Bonus when rolling to hit? If you use your Str, then it is a melee attack. If you use your Dex, then it is a ranged attack (unless you have weapon finesse) and it would also have a range listed as well.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I guess I am getting confused on the whole "spell damage" and "melee damage" thing. I've never heard the term "melee damage" used before. I would figure that melee damage is damag that is inflicted using a melee attack or melee weapon.

So far, you are very correct.

What is an armed strike (armed because of the spell charge being held) with the hand, if not a melee attack with a melee weapon?

Casting a touch spell. Do you allow multiclass fighter/clerics to take weapon focus and specialization Inflict Light Wounds? You shouldn't, because it's a spell not a weapon, and therefore doesn't meet the prerequisites of the feat.

Think of it this way. When using a touch spell, you graze the target with your hand. Just enough contact to transfer the spell energy, not enough contact to inflict any sort of weapon damage (including unarmed strikes).
How can brushing someone's skin possibly allow you to power attack them?

If you were using the psionic feat that lets you do a melee attack as a melee touch attack then you could power attack because you are still hitting them with your longsword, your sword is just mystically passing through their armor and natural armor.

 

[3d6]

Power Attack grants a bonus to "melee damage rolls". This term is used three times in the SRD: in the Power Attack feat itself, in the bull's strength spell, and in the solid fog spell.

Bull's strength says that modifying "melee damage rolls" is a "usual benefit" of improving a character's Strength score.

The entry for Strength indicates that Strength modifies "damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling)".

As damage rolls with a thrown weapon are self-evidently not melee damage rolls, I can only assume that a melee damage roll is a damage rolll made when using a melee weapon.

As a touch spell is not a melee weapon, it doesn't have a melee damage roll and therefore doesn't benefit from the Power Attack feat.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So far, you are very correct.

Casting a touch spell. Do you allow multiclass fighter/clerics to take weapon focus and specialization Inflict Light Wounds? You shouldn't, because it's a spell not a weapon, and therefore doesn't meet the prerequisites of the feat.

Casting a touch spell is casting a touch spell. It's not an attack roll. Do you make a roll whenever you cast Mage Armor, or when casting Cure Wounds on an ally? First you cast the spell (Standard Action) and then you make an attack roll to hit the target (part of the same Standard Action, but requires a roll of some sort... What kind of roll? That is what I am trying to determine. Since you are hitting them in melee, I'd assume it was a melee attack roll. If not, then I could hit them with an Inflict spell at range).

Think of it this way. When using a touch spell, you graze the target with your hand. Just enough contact to transfer the spell energy, not enough contact to inflict any sort of weapon damage (including unarmed strikes).
How can brushing someone's skin possibly allow you to power attack them?

I understand that the touch is weak, not enough force behind it to do damage itself. But from a RAW standpoint, you are still making a melee attack. You just happen to have a spell charge stored in your hand.

So I guess basically what you are stating is that since the spell is doing the damage (which I agree with) then it is not a melee damage roll, even though you are using a melee weapon to deliver the attack? What is it then, a spell damage roll? Does such a term even exist or is it defined?

 

[cmanos]

touch attacks don't result in melee damage rolls, they result in a spell effect that causes spell damage

 

[Ipissimus]

Looking through the Combat and Spell sections of the PHB, I can't find anything that deliniates Spell Damage vs. Melee damage.

A Melee Touch Attack is still a Melee attack, all it does is ignore the armor bonus of the target, you still have to roll to hit because the target has a chance of being able to block or dodge the blow. Most importantly, as a melee attack, you still add your strength bonus to hit when making a melee touch attack. I would also refer to Brillient Energy weapons, which retain the strangth damage bonus despite being made out of light...

Anyhow, that indicates to me that a touch attack is still delivered with some ammount of power. And Power Attack comes with its own built-in weakness. So i'd allow it.

 

[irdeggman]

Looking through the Combat and Spell sections of the PHB, I can't find anything that deliniates Spell Damage vs. Melee damage.

A Melee Touch Attack is still a Melee attack, all it does is ignore the armor bonus of the target, you still have to roll to hit because the target has a chance of being able to block or dodge the blow. Most importantly, as a melee attack, you still add your strength bonus to hit when making a melee touch attack. I would also refer to Brillient Energy weapons, which retain the strangth damage bonus despite being made out of light...

Anyhow, that indicates to me that a touch attack is still delivered with some ammount of power. And Power Attack comes with its own built-in weakness. So i'd allow it.

Except that touch spells deliver damage from magic not melee (i.e., "normal").

Touch spell attacks are subject to SR.
SPELL RESISTANCE
Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.)

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.
A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps.

But DR does not work against touch attack.

DAMAGE REDUCTION
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.

The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Sometimes damage reduction is instant healing. Sometimes damage reduction represents the creature’s tough hide or body,. In either case, characters can see that conventional attacks don’t work.

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I would say, normally, no. Why? Because it is a touch attack.

I say this because Complete Arcane says : "you can add the damage of your unarmed strike to the damage of your touch spell" by attacking while casting it, but it no longer functions as a TOUCH but "regular melee attack".

So there's a way to do it in the rules. Without Improved Unarmed Attack you'd either take an AoO or need to get our of their reach (Enlarge Person is good for that).

Normally I say no, because your strength isn't added to the damage of the normal touch attack.

--fje

 

[irdeggman]

What is the "normal" damage of a touch attack?

That is the non-magical damage?

None as far as I can tell.

Unarmed strike is listed as have non-lethal damage, unless you have the improved unarmed strike feat.

Unarmed strike is not a touch attack.

 

[IcyCool]

It looks like a good rule of thumb seems to be:

If you can add your strength modifier to the damage, and it is a melee attack, then you can power attack with it. Otherwise, you can't.