Can you Quickdraw in the middle of an Attack?

[Camarath]

Abstraction?

 

[RigaMortus]

More importantly, how does 3.5 define "immediate"? Is it defined as, "your very next action" or perhaps "before the end of your turn"? 6 seconds is SHORT amount of time. The extra attack you get with Cleave and Great Cleave have to happen within those 6 seconds, meaning that chance are, the Cleave/Great Cleave is no more than 1 second each. Probably less than 1 second. Seems pretty "immediate" to me.

 

[RigaMortus]

Then why does it have Cleave as a prerequisite? It's important to use the spirit of the rules to interpret the letter of the rules.

Do you honestly think that it is intended that Great Cleave give you two extra attacks on the first foe you drop?

The same can be said for many feat chains. Mobility and Dodge are prereqs for Spring Attack. Does this mean that I no longer get their benefit once I have Spring Attack?

 

[mikebr99]

The same can be said for many feat chains. Mobility and Dodge are prereqs for Spring Attack. Does this mean that I no longer get their benefit once I have Spring Attack?

NO.. it means you get better and better at dodging stuff (graduating through the feat chain) while moving... until such a time as you can move without it being a distraction (ie. no AoO from your spring attacked target).


Mike

 

[RigaMortus]

NO.. it means you get better and better at dodging stuff (graduating through the feat chain) while moving... until such a time as you can move without it being a distraction (ie. no AoO from your spring attacked target).


Mike

Right... But you still provoke AoOs from other bad guys around you. And you STILL get to apply Mobility and Dodge against them. Same thing with Cleave. Your first target of Cleave is susceptible to 2 Cleaves (on from Cleave and one from Great Cleave). Everyone else is susceptible against Great Cleave (assuming you keep dropping foes). We are saying the same thing.

 

[mikebr99]

Right... But you still provoke AoOs from other bad guys around you. And you STILL get to apply Mobility and Dodge against them. Same thing with Cleave. Your first target of Cleave is susceptible to 2 Cleaves (on from Cleave and one from Great Cleave). Everyone else is susceptible against Great Cleave (assuming you keep dropping foes). We are saying the same thing.

No we're not... Can you visualize how cleave/great cleave would look like? You are so strong with all your swings, and your newest target is weak enough so as to be little or no resistance to your current attack... so it (the same swing) continues on into the next target in line with no interruption.

The cleave feat would end once you hit that 2nd guy, irrespective of whether he's standing afterwards or not.

If you had great cleave, and felled that 2nd guy... your same swing would then continue into the 3rd guy... and so on till either you fail to make someone fall... or you run out of targets.

Mike

 

[dcollins]

I would have to say that the Great Cleave issue was a bit clearer in the 3.0 language. There it said:

Benefit: As Cleave, except that you have no limit to the number of times you can use it per round.

Which is to say, you still have the exact same power as you did when you first took Cleave. Except now you can do it multiple times per round. Defnitely you don't get multiple extra attacks from a single downed opponent.

Classic half-edition tinkering with stuff the secondary designers didn't fully understand, strikes again.

 

[RigaMortus]

Can you visualize how cleave/great cleave would look like?

Mike

There are many things in a fantasy setting that I can't visualize working, but according to the rules they do. Example: Read the "Rogue Disarming an Alarm spell" thread. How does one visualize a Rogue disarming a magical trap that has no visual mechanics to it? It doesn't matter, because according to the rules, you can, no matter if the Player or DM can wrap their head around how it would visually look or not...

It is great that you "visualize" a Cleave as passing through the flesh of one creature, into another. That doesn't make it the only way to visualize it, nor the correct way. To answer your question, I visualize it as such (again, not that it matters)... Kill bad guy with Great Axe, which Cleaves through him into the next guy (this is the regular Cleave). This does not kill him, but the weapon is "lodged" in the bad guys flesh. So as you rip it out of his flesh, you have a chance to do more damage (there is your Great Cleave). You may have ripped it out so strongly that you kill him and the momentum of the Great Axe goes into the next guy (Great Cleave continues...).

I guess the way you play it, you can't Cleave with Blunt or Piercing weapons, huh? Tell me how you visualize a Mace or Rapier "cleaving" someone...

Edit: Fixed typos

 

[Camarath]

I would have to say that the Great Cleave issue was a bit clearer in the 3.0 language.

I am not sure "As Cleave" is clearer than "This feat works like Cleave". It still seems to give you two feats which both function in the exactly the same manner except with one there is no limit to the number of times you can use it per round.

Personally I think the Great Cleave should have been written like this (and I play as if it was).

GREAT CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: There is no limit to the number of times you can use the Cleave feat per round.
Normal: The Cleave feat may only be use once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Great Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[mikebr99]

I guess the way you play it, you can't Cleave with Blunt or Piercing weapons, huh? Tell me how you visualize a Mace or Rapier "cleaving" someone...

I haven't limited cleave to certain weapons yet. I have yet to see light or finesseable weapons being used by a cleave fighter.

I have no problems with bludgeoning, smashing or simply pushing the felled target out of the way and continuing on to the next target.

[houserule alert!]
I have implemented a house rule that the cleaver must state the way he is attacking... clock-wise or counter... and then he has no choice who gets hit next, as it is the next closest target in that revolution.


Mike