Can you Quickdraw in the middle of an Attack?

[RigaMortus]

[houserule alert!]
I have implemented a house rule that the cleaver must state the way he is attacking... clock-wise or counter... and then he has no choice who gets hit next, as it is the next closest target in that revolution.


Mike

So does this mean you do not allow a Spiked Chain wielder to Cleave the guy behind someone (within the 10' reach of the Spiked chain)?

 

[mikebr99]

So does this mean you do not allow a Spiked Chain wielder to Cleave the guy behind someone (within the 10' reach of the Spiked chain)?

Hasn't come up... but that sounds right.
tks.


Mike

 

[Hypersmurf]

More importantly, how does 3.5 define "immediate"? Is it defined as, "your very next action" or perhaps "before the end of your turn"?

It's so immediate that you're not allowed to take a not-an-action 5' step between attack and Cleave.

Not-an-action is about as atomic as things get in 3.5.

Put simply, I wouldn't even allow a character to speak (free action that can be taken out of turn) between attack and Cleave, let alone Great Cleave between attack and Cleave.

-Hyp.

 

[tenkar]

I've been watching this thread most of the day so I figure it's time to put my 2 cents into it. You're NOT going to convince certain players to concede on an area of the rules if it means losing a percieved benefit, no matter how implausible that benefit might be.

Common sense and the spirit of the rules would indicate that great cleave is an upgrade to cleave and supercedes it, similar to the improvement one gets in improving TWF.

But to heck with the common sense approach, lets look at the feats summary on page 91... look at cleave (extra melee attack after dropping target)... now look at great cleave (no limit to cleave attacks per round)

Looks like the only effect great cleave has is in unlocking cleave's limit... it by itself has NO effect. Interesting. It appears your first cleave of the round is from the cleave feat and any other opportunities arising after the first need great cleave to "unlock" the ability to cleave more then once... one cleave per mob downed. Not that I expect anyone on the other side of the fence to climb over now, but it seems fairly clear to me.

 

[Camarath]

But to heck with the common sense approach, lets look at the feats summary on page 91... look at cleave (extra melee attack after dropping target)... now look at great cleave (no limit to cleave attacks per round)

The text of a feat is the primary source on any given feat feat and any table entry including the one on page 91 is only secondary source for rules about a given feat as per Errata rule on primary sources.

From Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 Errata

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a
table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence
when the short description in the beginning of the spells
chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves
book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for
example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC
races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something
on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or
the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s
Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the
primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary
source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special
material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual
is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and
supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

 

[Sejs]

Yes, but what he's pointing out is that the summary gives clairification that the text lacks. It's not that one says X, while the other says Y - it's that one say X, while the other says Xx.

 

[Anubis]

If you don't believe us, ask WotC. I'm sure they'll clarify that you're wrong and that you do NOT get two attacks extra if you have both Cleave and Great Cleave. I didn't think anyone was dumb enough to interpret that SO wrong.

So bottom line is, YOU'RE WRONG. You get ONE extra attack. That's the bottom line.

As to the progression, using the two-hander and then using two weapons does break the system a bit and allows too much damage. I'd go with the assumption that is implied by certain parts of the book that any use of a certain hand is part of the limit. That means that I'd rule that if you take one attack with the greataxe first, that counts as your first primary AND off-hand attack, thus balancing out the damage.

As for free actions, I'd rule that there is a limit to what characters of a certain level can do. I'd maybe allow a Level 16 fighter to do all that, but most definitely not a Level 6. That's high-speed stuff right there. Try doing all that for real in mock practice in reality in six seconds. I guarantee no one here can do that with any sort of possibility of doing it right. Someone would have to have heavy training. Maybe The One (Jet Li) could do it and maybe Blade, the Bride, Goku, and Vegeta, but not some Joe Schmo Level 6 wimp.

 

[dcollins]

Personally I think the Great Cleave should have been written like this (and I play as if it was).

GREAT CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: There is no limit to the number of times you can use the Cleave feat per round.
Normal: The Cleave feat may only be use once per round.

Except that it would break the use of the "Normal" line, which describes how a rule would work for someone with no feats at all. You can't find an existing example of the "Normal" entry that talks about what happens when someone uses another feat without the one under discussion.

 

[Sejs]

Complete Warrior, page 100.

Improved Combat Expertise [General]
You have mastered the art of defense in combat.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the Combat Expertise feat to improve your Armor Class, the number you subtract from your attack roll and add to your AC can be any number that does not exceed your base attack bonus.
Normal: With Combat Expertise, the number can be no greater than +5.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[tenkar]

I didn't see any conflict between the feat description and the summary table. What I saw was a clarification of the feat description. It did not negate or supercede anything said in the feat description, it just explained things in a nice, concise way.

The fact is that the clarification puts an end to this disputed topic. The answer was there, you had read it yourself I am sure, you just chose to disregard that which did not suit you.

The text of a feat is the primary source on any given feat feat and any table entry including the one on page 91 is only secondary source for rules about a given feat as per Errata rule on primary sources.

From Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 Errata

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a
table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence
when the short description in the beginning of the spells
chapter disagrees.