Can you Quickdraw in the middle of an Attack?

[Hypersmurf]

Hypersmurf, what would happen if a character wielding a Flaming Whip gains an immediate extra melee attack via Cleave which he uses against a creature who threatens him?

Why Flaming?

But anyway, the AoO is resolved before the action that provokes it... but the Cleave is still immediate for the character.

-Hyp.

 

[tenkar]

Hmmm, if i could use cleave and great cleave at the same time, I would resolve my great cleave first, and if it downs the opponent i'd save my cleave for a great cleave attack that didn't down an opponent and then I'd use my cleave attack, and if that downed and opponent I'd have another great cleave attack... crap, I think I see a rip in the space-time continum... did I do that?

 

[Camarath]

Why Flaming?

To avoide any potential, is rendering a creature unconscious via nonleathal damage considered dropping that creature, controversy.

But anyway, the AoO is resolved before the action that provokes it... but the Cleave is still immediate for the character.

Why would the abilities of other creatures be able to interrupt immediate game effects if the creatures own abilities can not do so? Immediate game effects can either be interrupted by other immediate game effects or they can not. The attacks from Cleave and Great Cleave are immediate game effects as are AoO. So why can AoO immediate game effects interrupt the immediate game effect of Cleave while the immediate game effect of Great Cleave is negated by the immediate game effect of Cleave?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why would the abilities of other creatures be able to interrupt immediate game effects if the creatures own abilities can not do so?

You're still attacking immediately - the AoO just gets in first.

If you try to attack twice, though, you're not attacking immediately... you're personally taking the time to do something else before making your second attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

Warning: a worthless post (except maybe for a laugh) ruined by my incompetence and lack of diligence - Camarath

You're still attacking immediately - the AoO just gets in first.

Immediate means "acting or being without the intervention of another object, cause, or agency". If an AoO interposes itself between the action which triggers an immediate attack and the immediate attack itself the immediate attack ceases to be immediate because it is not happening with out the intervention of another object. As far as I can see the source of the object, cause, or agency does not seem to be factor in whether or not something is to be considered immediate or not.

 

[Caliban]

Immediate means "acting or being without the intervention of another object, cause, or agency". If an AoO interposes itself between the action which triggers an immediate attack and the immediate attack itself the immediate attack ceases to be immediate because it is not happening with out the intervention of another object. As far as I can see the source of the object, cause, or agency does not seem to be factor in whether or not something is to be considered immediate or not.

Your real fun at parties. I can tell.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The hell?

Immediate means "acting or being without the intervention of another object, cause, or agency".

You went to Mirriam-Webster online and took the first definition of the word you found. Cute. However, that's not the definition we're using here. Your definition means "not mediate," which could also be said "not mediated...by another object, cause, or agency."

The definition we're using is definition #4 (a), "occurring, acting, or accomplished without loss or interval of time." In other words, right now. (listed synonym: Instant)

Next time you try to make an argument by quoting verbatim from the dictionary, please try to read the entire listing and choose the definition that makes sense. This is just ridiculous.

 

[Doctor Bomb]

Right... But you still provoke AoOs from other bad guys around you. And you STILL get to apply Mobility and Dodge against them. Same thing with Cleave. Your first target of Cleave is susceptible to 2 Cleaves (on from Cleave and one from Great Cleave). Everyone else is susceptible against Great Cleave (assuming you keep dropping foes). We are saying the same thing.

No we're not... Can you visualize how cleave/great cleave would look like? You are so strong with all your swings, and your newest target is weak enough so as to be little or no resistance to your current attack... so it (the same swing) continues on into the next target in line with no interruption...

OK.
So, as far as I can see, we have about three different discussions here.
1) Do Cleave and Great Cleave "stack";
and as a side-note:
2) The definition of immediate as it relates to game-actions;
and starting it all,
3) Cleave, Great Cleave, free actions, and iterative attacks.

RE: Item 1 and the quotes: If the rules aren't clear, and the player wants to play that way, and if the DM allows it (as inferred in the post that started this discussion) then you have to go with what works - you CAN make two immediate attacks, one from Cleave, and one from Great Cleave, against the same opponent (or against different opponents, IF you are wielding a weapon in each hand.)
That's not going to happen in my campaign, due to the SICK damage potential of a sneak attacking fighter/rogue dual-wielding keened shortswords.
IF the DM is going to allow that, expect the DM to use that against the players as well. MORE PC DEATHS IS GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!!

RE: Item 2: The ability to interrupt an immediate attack with an attack of opportunity, or as in the case of an awakened wolf (takes the Cleave feat) or a well-thought out monk, to trip and immediately make an attack and still have ALL of your attacks left (the foe is, technically, "down") does kind of stretch the boundary of what ought to be able to happen in six seconds.
Again, if the DM wants to let multiple immediate actions happen at the same time, then Cleave and Great Cleave abilities will stack in that campaign. Otherwise, as has been posted before, the majority of us are going to go with the spirit of the thing, to enhance our enjoyment of the game. YMMV.

RE: Item 3: Being a powergamer DM (he, he, I gotta write me up some stats on that half-clay golem tarrasque, ...) I saw that free action loophole the first run through 3.0, and house-ruled that in my campaigns, you get free actions=Dex bonus. That rules out the SLOW characters from pulling one of those "throw everything I have at him" attacks from the post that started this discussion. It also gives the DM an easier way to SHOW the characters how dangerous a Kelvezu Tanar'ri from MMII is (Dex 31 - with the right feats and equipment - yeah, he killed half the party the first round). Sneak attacks are kewl.
Attack #1, drop the first opponent, Cleave and Great Cleave the second opponent, drop the second opponent, Great Cleave the third opponent - still standing.
Attack #2, drop the third opponent, Great Cleave the fourth opponent, etc.

As for the dropping weapons and quick drawing, and using a ranged attack at the end (why not early on, with the Axe? MORE DAMAGE!!) whatever the DM allows is kewl, but yes, his attack bonuses were off, due to the reasons posted earlier (something about -2 to all attacks...)

In conclusion, my wife is right. The fact that I read this thread and responded proves that I AM a geek!!

 

[Hypersmurf]

You CAN make two immediate attacks, one from Cleave, and one from Great Cleave, against the same opponent (or against different opponents, IF you are wielding a weapon in each hand.)

How does the 'weapon in each hand' help?

Cleave specifies that the extra attack must be with the same weapon that dropped the original opponent...

-Hyp.

 

[Doctor Bomb]

How does the 'weapon in each hand' help?

Cleave specifies that the extra attack must be with the same weapon that dropped the original opponent...

-Hyp.

RIGHT - So you can't use Cleave to hit somebody with your off-hand weapon without getting the off-hand weapon penalty.
BUT, if you are going to tackle the whole munchkinland "they didn't specifically say you can't so I can" Cleave and Great Cleave thing, then since Great Cleave doesn't SPECIFICALLY say you can't use a different weapon, you can!

Just trying to give these UBERCLEAVERS' DM's something to use AGAINST them. After a few rounds against a hasted, improved invisible Marilith Rogue 6, I am sure they will see things OUR way.