Can you Quickdraw in the middle of an Attack?

[RigaMortus]

Let's say I had the following "set up":

Human Fighter 6
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, TWF, PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Quickdraw
BAB: +6/+1

Can I do the following:

1) Attack enemy with Great Axe, killing him. (1st iterrative attack)
2) Cleave into adjacent_enemy_001 with Great Axe (not killing him)
3) Great Cleave into adjacent_enemy_001 with Great Axe (killing him)
4) Great Cleave into a adjacent_enemy_002
5) Free Action drop Great Axe
6) Free Action Quickdraw Longsword, Free Action Quickdraw Shortsword
7) Attack adjacent_enemy_002 with Longsword (2nd iterattive attack)
8) Attack adjacent_enemy_002 with Shortsword (1st off-hand attack), killing enemy
9) Free Action drop Longsword
10) Free Action Quickdraw Dagger
11) Throw dagger via Rapid Shot at a new_enemy_001

What would my attacks look like? I calculate +2/-3/-3/-2 which breaks down like so (not counting Cleaves of course):
+2 (primary with Great Axe)
-3 (primary with Longsword, using TWF)
-3 (off-hand with Shortsword, using TWF)
-2 (primary with Dagger, using Rapid Shot & PBS)

What about the following (similiar):

Starting off using TWF, Longsword in primary hand, Shortsword in off-hand.
1) Attack enemy with Longsword (killing him)
2) Cleave into adjacent_enemy_001 w/ Longsword (not killing him)
3) Great Cleave into adjacent_enemy_001 w/ Longsword (killing him)
4) Attack adjacent_enemy_002 with Shortsword (killing him)
5) Great Cleave into adjacent_enemy_003 with Shortsword (not killing him)
6) Free Action drop Longsword; Free Action drop Shortsword)
7) Free Action Quickdraw Great Axe
8) Attack adjacent_enemy_003 (killing him)
9) Great Cleave adjacent_enemy_004 (killing him)
10) Free Action drop Great Axe
11) Free Action Quickdraw a dagger
12) Throw dagger via Rapid Shot at a new_enemy_001

What would my attacks look like? I calculate +2/+2/-3/-2 which breaks down like so (again, not counting Cleaves):

+2 (primary with Longsword, using TWF)
+2 (off-hand with Shortsword, using TWF)
-3 (primary with Great Axe)
-2 (primary with Dagger, using Rapid Shot & PBS)

If I factor Power Attack in there, I assume that I'd get negatives to hit when it came time to use Rapid Shot, but not pluses to damage, correct? And I also assume Power Attack would apply (both to hit and damage) to the new melee weapons I switched to, correct?

On the second example, can I Power Attack for a -2 with my Longsword/Shortsword combo, then as I Quickdraw the Great Axe, apply another -4 (for a total of -6 to hit, but +12 to damage) to the Great Axe?

 

[mikebr99]

Let's say I had the following "set up":

Human Fighter 6
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, TWF, PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Quickdraw
BAB: +6/+1

Can I do the following:

1) Attack enemy with Great Axe, killing him. (1st iterrative attack)
2) Cleave into adjacent_enemy_001 with Great Axe (not killing him)

Wait... hold on a minute. Not killing him means 3 & 4 can't happen

3) <snip>
4) <snip>

Can't happen

5) Free Action drop Great Axe
6) Free Action Quickdraw Longsword, Free Action Quickdraw Shortsword
7) Attack adjacent_enemy_002 with Longsword (2nd iterattive attack)
8) Attack adjacent_enemy_002 with Shortsword (1st off-hand attack), killing enemy

Well this would invoke great cleave again with the shortsword.

9) Free Action drop Longsword
10) Free Action Quickdraw Dagger
11) Throw dagger via Rapid Shot at a new_enemy_001

9 should be another attack from the shortsword... then the other stuff following.


Mike

 

[Camarath]

If I factor Power Attack in there, I assume that I'd get negatives to hit when it came time to use Rapid Shot, but not pluses to damage, correct?

You do not suffer the penalty to attack rolls from Power Attack when making a ranged attack.

And I also assume Power Attack would apply (both to hit and damage) to the new melee weapons I switched to, correct?

Yes.

On the second example, can I Power Attack for a -2 with my Longsword/Shortsword combo, then as I Quickdraw the Great Axe, apply another -4 (for a total of -6 to hit, but +12 to damage) to the Great Axe?

No Power Attack is set before making any attack rolls on your action and applies to all melee attacks until your next turn and can not be changed.

 

[Camarath]

RigaMortus I do not think you are meant to gain an additional Cleave attack and an additional Great Cleave attack from the first foe you kill. I know that Great Cleave states that it "This feat works like Cleave" and does not say it replaces Cleave so technically one would gain two attacks but I do not think that is what the writers meant.

 

[Mahali]

I know that Great Cleave states that it "This feat works like Cleave" and does not say it replaces Cleave so technically one would gain two attacks but I do not think that is what the writers meant.

GREAT CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: This feat works like Cleave, except that there is no limit to the number of times you can use it per round.
Special: A fighter may select Great Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

This means that you can use cleave everytime you kill someone, not just one per round. You don't get another attack each time you Cleave.

 

[RigaMortus]

They are two seperate feats though, right? They work independantly from one another, don't they? If I kill someone, don't I get the benefit from each feat that qualifies for it? Therefore, shouldn't Cleave and Great Cleave be triggered?

It's fine if it doesn't work this way, just curious...

I was more concerned with my attack progression there and what my attack bonuses would look like. You can ignore the Cleave attempts.

 

[Camarath]

This means that you can use cleave everytime you kill someone, not just one per round. You don't get another attack each time you Cleave.

Since Great Cleave states that it "works like Cleave" and and does not state that it replace Cleave once per round you have two separate abilities (Cleave and Great Cleave) which each grant an additional attack after dropping a foe. Thus one could suggest that you get one extra attack form Cleave and a separate extra attack from Great Cleave from dropping the same foe. I do not believe this is what was intended but IMO it does seem to be what is written.

 

[mikebr99]

They are two seperate feats though, right? They work independantly from one another, don't they? If I kill someone, don't I get the benefit from each feat that qualifies for it? Therefore, shouldn't Cleave and Great Cleave be triggered?

It's fine if it doesn't work this way, just curious...

No... great cleave just improves cleave, to multiple times per round.

You do not get a free attack from cleave & then another free attack from great cleave if your 1st attack "falls" someone.

Great cleave kicks in after the initial cleave attack kills.

Mike

 

[Kemrain]

Because you take Two Weapon Penalties to all attacks when fighting with two weapons, and Rapid Shot gives all your attacks a -2 penalty when you get the extra attack, I think the attack routines you described, Cleave and Great Cleave issues aside, are incorrect.

You can Whack with a Greataxe, drop it, and then draw two weapons and continue to fight, but you can only do that if you take the -2 penalty to all attacks you make that round. I believe the same goes with Rapid Shot, though I'd love to see what Hypersmurf has to say about this.

However, your are correct about one thing... You can use Quickdraw Exactly as you described.

- Kemrain the Dual Wielder.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I believe the same goes with Rapid Shot, though I'd love to see what Hypersmurf has to say about this.

The Rapid Shot penalty definitely applies to every attack in a round.

Two-Weapon Fighting gets... murky.

It never specifically states that the penalties apply to every attack made in a round; it says the penalties apply when you are 'fighting this way'.

I, and a lot of other people who've taken part in such topics before, do apply the penalties to all attacks made in a round, just like Rapid Shot, like Flurry of Blows, and so on. Some people apply the penalties to all attacks in a Full Attack action, but not to any AoOs or extra attacks made in the same round. I saw one guy who had a bizarre system where primary attacks could be made with no penalty, until you started 'pairing' off-hand attacks with primary attacks, and at that point the penalties kicked in... and the off-hand attacks started off at the lower iterative bonus (and he was convinced this was strictly RAW...!).

To be honest, I wouldn't allow off-hand attacks in the same round you used a two-handed weapon (or claimed benefits for wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands) - including off-hand armor spike attacks. 1.5x Str bonus with primary attacks and .5x Str bonus with off-hand attacks seems to 'break the system' that makes such beautiful, elegant sense under normal circumstances.

Otherwise you'll have someone making four iterative attacks with a greataxe at full bonus, who then lets go with his left hand, Quick Draws a dagger, makes three off-hand attacks with TWF penalties, and drops the dagger to regrip his axe for AoOs (or throws it, if he takes the -2 Rapid Shot penalty on all attacks in the round). Next round, he does the same with a different dagger...

They're effectively getting all the benefits of THF with none of the drawbacks (like fewer attacks than a TWFer), and all the benefits of TWF with none of the drawbacks (like penalties and lower base damage on primary attacks)... and that's not right.

-Hyp.