Can you Sneak Attack with Grapple Checks?

[Stalker0]

Under the rogue's entry, it says her attacks deal extra damage when....etc etc. Would grapple checks to deal damage count as attacks for this purpose?

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

Actually participating in a grapple? I would say no, since grappled characters only lose their Dex mods against characters outside the grapple. I would probably rule that the first grapple check might get SA damage but only the first one and it would have to meet all the typical SA reqs.

 

[Deset Gled]

You could sneak attack with a grapple as long as the target is denied their dex bonus to AC, or you flank them. You do not deal sneak attack damage just from grappling, as grappling does not meet these restrictions. Flanking in a grapple is pretty difficult to do.

The damage would be subdual if you're using a sap or unarmed strike, or normal damage if using a light weapon.

 

[majustismp15]

When using a garotte you make a grapple check, and IIRC you can apply your SA damage to it, so assuming that is correct, technically you could apply SA in a grapple.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You could sneak attack with a grapple as long as the target is denied their dex bonus to AC, or you flank them. You do not deal sneak attack damage just from grappling, as grappling does not meet these restrictions. Flanking in a grapple is pretty difficult to do.

Scenario: You are grappling with an orc who was blinded by a Color Spray.

He's not denied his Dex bonus against you because he is grappling; nevertheless, he is denied his Dex bonus against you because he is blind.

I'd inclined to say no, no sneak attack - the 'Damage Your Opponent' option is not an attack, it is something you do in place of an attack.

If you used the 'Attack with a Light Weapon' option, sneak attack away.

-Hyp.

 

[Deset Gled]

I'd inclined to say no, no sneak attack - the 'Damage Your Opponent' option is not an attack, it is something you do in place of an attack.

Interesting...

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

"In place of" does seem to imply that the grapple check isn't an attack. However, "damage as normal" is a bit ambiguous, as damage is normally only dealt with an attack.

Normally, a rogue using an unarmed attack against a target denied their dex bonus to AC will deal SA damage. OTOH, a normal character cannot deal sneak attack damage. Does "as normal" mean that no special damaging abilities/bonuses are allowed (only unarmed strike damage according to size plus strength modifier), or that the damage is resolved as a normal attack for that character? I think the latter is correct, but don't really have any proof.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does "as normal" mean that no special damaging abilities/bonuses are allowed (only unarmed strike damage according to size plus strength modifier), or that the damage is resolved as a normal attack for that character? I think the latter is correct, but don't really have any proof.

The existence of the Weapon Specialization: Grapple feat suggests to me that the Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike feat is inapplicable to damage dealt with the Damage Your Opponent option.

So "As normal for your unarmed strike" doesn't necessarily mean "Pretend for a moment that instead of a successful grapple check, you just made a successful attack roll with an unarmed strike, in order to resolve damage", because certain things that might apply to an unarmed strike don't necessarily apply to the grapple, and there are certain things that can apply to the grapple that would not apply to the unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

 

[the_redbeard]

Scenario: You are grappling with an orc who was blinded by a Color Spray.

He's not denied his Dex bonus against you because he is grappling; nevertheless, he is denied his Dex bonus against you because he is blind.

I'd inclined to say no, no sneak attack - the 'Damage Your Opponent' option is not an attack, it is something you do in place of an attack.

If you used the 'Attack with a Light Weapon' option, sneak attack away.

-Hyp.

I think you WOULD get sneak attack damage (I've been reading up on it.)

This is what a column on the WoTC site said about sneak attacks and spells. Sneak attacks that require a to hit roll but don't deal just hit points (like an enervation spell) do get sneak attack damage.

Spells as Sneak Attacks
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.
Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).
A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

So I'd say that if a rogue was attacking someone that was already in a sneak attack situation and wanted to grapple, then yes. Add those d6es.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is what a column on the WoTC site said about sneak attacks and spells. Sneak attacks that require a to hit roll but don't deal just hit points (like an enervation spell) do get sneak attack damage.

But not with a Ray of Enfeeblement; the requirement is that the spell must require an attack roll and deal damage, where damage is defined as 'hit point damage, ability damage or drain, or negative levels'. Enervation qualifies (it requires an attack roll and 'deals damage' in the form of negative levels); Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't (it requires an attack roll, but does not deal damage; it imposes a penalty).

'Damage your opponent' in a grapple, on the other hand, deals damage but does not require an attack roll.

-Hyp.

 

[brendan candries]

nor do you autohit/miss on a roll of 1 or 20 (opposed check) nor can you threat/crit.