Cantrips as encounter powers?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I don't know. I must confess to liking Wizards with unlimited cantrips better than I like Wizards with crossbows. That isn't to say that I don't understand the opposition to Wizards casting spells every single round, for people who want something that feels more like conventional fantasy literature, but it seems like if the primary way that the Wizard interacts with the environment-- including combat-- is through magic, it just feels discordant for him to be reduced to mundane means.

If we're going to have Wizards relying heavily on crossbows and throwing daggers, it seems to me that we would need magic to be much less common than the D&D rules assume... and of much less immediately utility in battle, so that the 'mighty wizard' is a powerful ritual caster outside of combat and a mediocre fighter within it.

 

[Gorgoroth]

..

There are no short rests in any of what you describe, so by 4e standards each is one encounter.

Meaning, the delay in between taking certain actions would be entirely up to the DM or other circumstances, and vary from hour to hour, day to day, battle to battle. Kind of hard to maintain narrative consistency when an encounter can range from 30 seconds to 30 minutes, or more.

Let alone allowing players to be able to rely on their own abilities in a consistent fashion.

 

[Steely_Dan]

it seems to me that we would need magic to be much less common than the D&D rules assume... and of much less immediately utility in battle, so that the 'mighty wizard' is a powerful ritual caster outside of combat and a mediocre fighter within it.

Sounds a bit like the wizard in the original Conan film, which I agree is good for a story (book/film), but in play/a game, can be frustrating (though some enjoy playing that, so should be an option).

 

[Plane Sailing]

My solution: Make all At-wills Encounter Powers. This makes the decision to use such spells more of a decision, but keeps them available throughout the session.
...

Presto, fixed!

I don't think that really fixes anything - you have a wizard with 2 or 3 fighting cantrips so what is he going to do for most of the 5-8 rounds of a combat? Stand and watch? Use one of his precious actual spells? Wade in with his quarterstaff?

I think that a better option for you might be to make Magic Missile into a proper 1st level spell and have another ranged cantrip but which requires an attack roll to hit - call it 'hand of fire' or something, and the wizard gets to throw a glob of flame that does 1d6 damage if he hits.

Now you don't have automatic damage, but you do have wizards who can fight magically.

 

[GX.Sigma]

First of all, let's not have any game stuff that breaks immersion. The "encounter" is a highly artificial concept. I mean, how do you define an "encounter"?

I wouldn't think of it as "once per encounter", but as "recharge on short rest."

I don't see anything wrong with the idea that cantrips must be prepared and expended, but can be re-prepared by studying your spellbook for 10 minutes. There's nothing wrong with that, in terms of "associated mechanics" or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with a berserker, after entering a rage, needing to take a 10 minute breather to cool down (and I'd much prefer that to X times/day).

We all know the problems with encounter-based design, but let's not use that as an indictment of abilities that 'recharge' on short rest.

 

[TerraDave]

Do not allow the same cantrip to be used on consecutive rounds (once per 10 seconds...)?

 

[GreyICE]

The encounter power was rather decently defined as 'any time you get a breather you get your power back' and rather more completely defined as 'any time the DM says you do, you do, and any time they say you don't you don't.'

It'll make an appearance in 4E. It's not like it didn't make an appearance, in various forms, in 3E (Factotem, 9 Swords, Binder).

Anyway, I think it'd work better if you could use a spell slot on an encounter power. Like 'use a 3rd level spell slot, you get this minor effect you can do once per encounter.' It's a good way to integrate them into a Daily system without specifically creating a module (if you think it breaks immersion for a wizard to be able to recharge spells more often than 'once in 24 hours,' you can just ignore that module). Cantrips as at-wills means you can always cast SOMETHING.

 

[pemerton]

Meaning, the delay in between taking certain actions would be entirely up to the DM or other circumstances, and vary from hour to hour, day to day, battle to battle. Kind of hard to maintain narrative consistency when an encounter can range from 30 seconds to 30 minutes, or more.

I don't think that most of those running games with per encounter (per scene, per session etc) abilities have trouble maintaining narrative consistency.

If what you mean is that it draws on different GMing, adjudicative and narrative techniques from those one would use in a game without such abilities then that almost goes without saying, doesn't it?

 

[AeroDm]

I think it is a neat idea. Limiting cantrips to one time per encounter ensures that a range of spells will be used but also ensures that the really base spells can be done often. Sure, it comes up with some problems of "how do you define an encounter" but it also forces some level of resource management, variety, etc.

It also makes it less crucial to balance cantrips because we don't have to worry about them becoming the only action a wizard takes. I hate the idea that a feat or a whatever that improves magic missile could have the potential to derail the wizard into a one-trick pony. By limiting cantrips to one per encounter, you could allow a specialized magic missile wizard who still has to rely on a range of tricks. I like that a lot.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

The idea presented by the OP is not without merit, but it needs putting into more friendly context.

Let's say that casting some spells, and certain manuevers are exhausting. Characters will have a 'stamina' score based off of an appropriate ability. Casting certain spells, or pulling off certain moves will cost stamina (1 per action, though I suppose you could have more serious ones that cost more stamina). Stamina does not recharge in battle, but does after a breather.

For instance, a Fighter might use Strength as their stamina ability. Moves like pushing, grappling and charging are always available. Say you are a sword and board specialist: you have learned to deflect a blow by punching back at the right moment with your shield, but it's exhausting, so it will cost you a point of stamina to use this move. Say you're a zweihander, and if you focus your strength, you can charge an opponent, are more likely to hit, will do more damage if you do and knock them over, but it's tiring and costs you a point of stamina.

Back to the Wizard, who will use intelligence as their stamina ability. Casting certain spells is trivial, anyone can produce Light or Mage Hand. Zapping out a Magic Missile though takes a bit of effort, leaves your mind vulnerable to the arcane weave of the cosmos and will cost you a point of stamina. You have certain 'prepared' spells too, these are so complex that if you didn't spend time thinking about them well in advance they would fry your brain (here there could be an option to spend all your stamina for an unprepared spell), so you prepare them and they are good to go when needed.

How does that sound for a compromise?