D&D 4E Careful Shot vs Twin Strike....No Contest (4e spoilers)

[loisel]

Hello,

I have done a similar calculation. I found a formula for the breakeven point according to level. For level L, assuming that your damage is 1d8+L/3 or 1d10+L/3 (doesn't really matter, but I prefer twin bastards), the breakeven point is always 20. The L/3 factor is a guesstimate of the magic enhancement bonus of your swords, combined with the weapon focus bonus (which goes up by 1 every tier). You can replace the L/3 by L/4, doesn't make a difference. Your hunter's quarry can be 1d6 or 1d8, doesn't make a difference. I've taken into account criticals, as well as hunter's quarry. You have to be careful with quarry since it only procs once, even if you hit twice, so its TS calculation is less straightforward.

In any case, I found that if you need a 19 or 20 to hit, then CS deals about 91% of the damage of TS at level 1, and at level 30 this gets close to 95%. In other words, you lose 5-9% damage by using CS.

If you hit on a natural 20 precisely, then you gain a respectable 18% damage at level 1, and 29% damage at level 30.

If you hit on a 21 precisely (i.e., ts still hits on a crit only, but cs hits on 19,20), then you're losing again. This time, you're sacrificing 16% damage at level 1, and about 10% damage at level 30.

So if you know the exact AC of the baddie, and you know that you hit exactly on a 20, then by all means, use CS.

The rest of the time (if it's harder than a 20, or easier than a 20), forget it!

 

[Otterscrubber]

Um....errr.....oops Hehe, you ever get so excited to prove a point you don't mind looking stupid by missing a small detail? I do that a lot......

 

[That One Guy]

(I think the careful attack and its brethren should really just be like power attack in reverse or something along those lines. Houserule?)

Has anyone used the damage bonus from TWF feat in the calculations? Because, wouldn't that untyped +1 damage be applied to both hits in Twin Strike?

 

[theNater]

I haven't seen the powers, but with the names Careful Shot and Twin Strike, it sounds like one is a ranged power and the other is a melee power.

The math used so far suggests that Twin Strike is better for a melee character. What about ranged fighting? Even if you can Twin Strike at range, I'd assume that you need a weapon in each hand, which means slings or hand crossbows. I'm going to guess that Careful Shot with a longbow beats Twin Strike with crossbows, and costs less loading time.

If my guesses are correct, then as the thread title suggests, there is no contest. It's Twin Strike for the melee rangers, and Careful Shot for the archery rangers.

If my guesses are incorrect, please let me know where I have erred.

 

[FadedC]

I haven't seen the powers, but with the names Careful Shot and Twin Strike, it sounds like one is a ranged power and the other is a melee power.

The math used so far suggests that Twin Strike is better for a melee character. What about ranged fighting? Even if you can Twin Strike at range, I'd assume that you need a weapon in each hand, which means slings or hand crossbows. I'm going to guess that Careful Shot with a longbow beats Twin Strike with crossbows, and costs less loading time.

If my guesses are correct, then as the thread title suggests, there is no contest. It's Twin Strike for the melee rangers, and Careful Shot for the archery rangers.

If my guesses are incorrect, please let me know where I have erred.

You have erred in that twin strike specifically says it works on ranged attacks.

 

[Baumi]

I think they should just have left the Dex/Str Damage Bonus on Carefull Attack. Each At-Will Attack is usually just a Basic Attack with a small Bonus-Feature and in this case it would be +2 to hit instead of a Bonus to AC, Push, Cleavedamage, etc. ...

I don't think that this would have been too powerful, especially compared to Twin Strike.

 

[theNater]

You have erred in that twin strike specifically says it works on ranged attacks.

I addressed that possibility. Are you required to have a weapon in each hand to use Twin Strike? If so, that significantly reduces your weapon options for using Twin Strike at range.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

I think they should just have left the Dex/Str Damage Bonus on Carefull Attack. Each At-Will Attack is usually just a Basic Attack with a small Bonus-Feature and in this case it would be +2 to hit instead of a Bonus to AC, Push, Cleavedamage, etc. ...

I don't think that this would have been too powerful, especially compared to Twin Strike.

Also in comparison to the rogue exploit piercing strike. In general your targets reflex will be anywhere from 1 to 3 points lower then its AC, yet the rogue still gets its bonus DEX damage. And just a quick Q, does anyone here actually have the physical books? Because if not, then we cant say for sure that the bonus MOD damage isnt included.

 

[Ravingdork]

Are you guys taking magic enhancement bonuses into account in those calculations? A lot of my friends kept forgetting that you can still add your magic enhancement bonus to the damage roll of Careful Shot even though your ability modifier is excluded from the damage.

 

[Zurai]

I addressed that possibility. Are you required to have a weapon in each hand to use Twin Strike? If so, that significantly reduces your weapon options for using Twin Strike at range.

No. All of the ranger melee-or-ranged powers require EITHER two melee weapons OR a ranged weapon. There are zero powers that require dual wielding ranged weapons.