Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[dante58701]

Given the changes to Artifacts, what divine status would silver surfer be? Intermediate or perhaps a greater deity? He always struck me as having nearly as much power as Galactus, though it wasn't focused towards combat so much as flitting around from planet to planet.

Sure he had the power cosmic (Cosmic Blast and such), but he was definitely a traveler. I figured for him either the Travel portfolios and Time portfolio or Double Travel portfolios. As it stands, I don't see how he can even have that surfboard of his as a mere lesser deity.

Unless he somehow gets to combine his four artifacts into a single artifact and has a cosmic ability that boosts the power of his artifact.

Sidenote:When is Gods and Monsters due? My gaming group is really looking forward to it.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Meh, I don't see what all the uproar is about. Oh noes, just add +1 to EL for multiple monsters. The system as a whole works fine. Heck, following U_K's CR guidelines, the other night I threw 3 Mindflayers at my poor ECL 5 party. Only 1 death, but they came out victorious. Normal D20 CR/EL rules say that would be impossible for them, I say nay. Heck, only 2 people even took damage. (and they began the fight at a disadvantage; they couldn't immediately attack the 3rd mindflayer, it was under water)

I honestly don't think the minor addendum to CR/EL would make much of a difference. The difference could just be written off as extreme circumstances.

 

[historian]

Incidentally the CR*2 = EL+6 equation might make more sense, canonically speaking. It also might make more sense in light of U_K's divine hierarchy as well. Consider a Stage II Demiurge trying to tackle all of the Old Ones at once.

I think the push back is more less due to what folks have said; it is a fundamental change going to the essence of the material.

BTW U_K, this is the wrong thread but I find the Simony article re: Castles and Crusades pretty interesting. Is there any push to flesh conversions out further (i.e. ability scores, etc.)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Given the changes to Artifacts, what divine status would silver surfer be?

None, based on the artifacts rules...

Intermediate or perhaps a greater deity?

...however, with the new Encounter Level dynamic it might be more apropriate for him to be an Intermediate Deity. I'll have a think on it.

He always struck me as having nearly as much power as Galactus,

Nowhere near it.

though it wasn't focused towards combat so much as flitting around from planet to planet.

Galactus and/or his ship can both travel at superluminal speeds.

Sure he had the power cosmic (Cosmic Blast and such), but he was definitely a traveler. I figured for him either the Travel portfolios and Time portfolio or Double Travel portfolios. As it stands, I don't see how he can even have that surfboard of his as a mere lesser deity.

Unless he somehow gets to combine his four artifacts into a single artifact and has a cosmic ability that boosts the power of his artifact.

Indeed. From that perspective he would need to be an Old One. However, thats probably because Marvel don't balance things as well as me. Silver Surfer is no match for Odin, therefore at absolute best hes an Intermediate Deity.

Also while Surfer can move at lightspeed or greater he doesn't accelerate at lightspeed.

Sidenote:When is Gods and Monsters due? My gaming group is really looking forward to it.

Its due when its done, I get my fingers burnt way too often by giving dates.

 

[dante58701]

If he has abilities that make him like an old one, then you should simply make him an old one and gear his abilities towards flitting about and such. Just give him only a few offensive capabilities and none that are all so awe inspiring. This way his artifacts and his abilities would balance out. Especially since Odin is definitely geared towards being able to fight really well, while Silversurfer is more of a vagabondish type. And he should be higher since he is indeed the cosmic defender.

Silver surfer should be a first one after he defeats Galactus.

Galactus should also be a First One on the basis that he preexists the current multiverse and no being, save for a first one could conceivable survive such a catastrophe without assistance.

It would also go a long way to explain why his ship is so powerful.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

Meh, I don't see what all the uproar is about. Oh noes, just add +1 to EL for multiple monsters.

Not quite as simple as that, you need to increase the number of encounter level 'steps' for multiple opponents by 50% (x1.5).

2 opponents = EL +2
3 = EL +3
4-5 = EL +4
6-7 = EL +5
8-11 = EL +6
12-15 = EL +7
16-23 = EL +8
etc.

So if the old system suggested a 4-5 opponents (EL +4) would be an equal encounter, the new system suggests 8-11 (EL +4 x1.5 = EL +6)

The system as a whole works fine. Heck, following U_K's CR guidelines, the other night I threw 3 Mindflayers at my poor ECL 5 party. Only 1 death, but they came out victorious. Normal D20 CR/EL rules say that would be impossible for them, I say nay. Heck, only 2 people even took damage. (and they began the fight at a disadvantage; they couldn't immediately attack the 3rd mindflayer, it was under water)

Interesting.

Mind Flayers are only CR 6 according to my on the spot calculations using version 6.

Assuming your PCs are 5th-level, with standard point buy they would technically be ECL 6 each, meaning CR 4 individually.

Assuming 4-5 PCs you are looking at an EL +5/+6 encounter. But that probably doesn't tell the whole story.

I honestly don't think the minor addendum to CR/EL would make much of a difference. The difference could just be written off as extreme circumstances.

It makes a big difference to epic levels, where disparities are far more pronounced.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi historian mate!

Incidentally the CR*2 = EL+6 equation might make more sense, canonically speaking. It also might make more sense in light of U_K's divine hierarchy as well. Consider a Stage II Demiurge trying to tackle all of the Old Ones at once.

I think the push back is more less due to what folks have said; it is a fundamental change going to the essence of the material.

I'm just looking for accuracy.

BTW U_K, this is the wrong thread but I find the Simony article re: Castles and Crusades pretty interesting. Is there any push to flesh conversions out further (i.e. ability scores, etc.)?

I'll talk to Simon tomorrow and see what he says.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
Assuming 4-5 PCs you are looking at an EL +5/+6 encounter. But that probably doesn't tell the whole story...

Well there 'were' 4 of them, level 8, but with very poor equipment for their level (Only one had a magic item, and it wasn't a useful item in combat) so I reasoned their ECL was lower than 8 because of poor equipment and the fact that none of them had a very 'sturdy' (Read: Power gamed) character build. (Party: Rogue 4/Paladin 4; Ranger 8; Dwarven Wizard 8, with a penchant for using fireballs even if the situation makes such a spell inappropriate; and an 8th level Witch, from the DMG)

The mind flayers didn't get surprise, and in fact were beaten in initiative, but of the 3 PCs who went first, only 1 dealt damage. (About 10-ish, not enough to matter) The paladin repositioned himself, (they were in tight quarters) and the Witch Polymorphed into a Gray-Render. (Didn't have any useful attack spells)
Then the mind flayers went. Of course, one lead the fight with a single mind-blast. Blam. Everyone rolls a "1". Everyone. The ranger was stunned for 11 rounds, everyone else for 5 or 6. Then the melee began. After 4 rounds, the witch was now 5 lbs of graymatter lighter, and the paladin was nearing certain doom. He made his prayer roll, and rolled just well enough for divine intervention, (which I comically invoked) in the form of one of the Mindflayers betraying the others and trying to eat the brain of the one grappling him, which bought the wizard time to blast them all with fireballs and lightning bolts. (The group began joking that the Paladin worshiped Cthulu, considering it was a Mindflayer that saved him)
In the end, the paladin was horribly crippled, (which later lead to his demise, killed in his sleep by the traitorous ranger, who later gets his in the form of becoming a dragon's lunch) the witch was perma-dead, (no cleric) and the wizard and ranger were a bit shaken, but otherwise not too bad. It was a good bit of Xp for the three survivors.

Twas a session full of nasty combats. Only the Wizard survived. (And a PC who's player wasn't there. Ironically, he's now the 2nd highest level character.)

 

[WarDragon]

Wow, that was pretty harsh, Cheiro. I really don't see what was so "elegant" about the formula, or any string of numbers, in the first place. Who cares how it looks as long as it work? I'd much rather Krust admit his mistake and try to fix it than ignore it just to keep the "elegance" in place.

 

[Pssthpok]

Okay, my questions are as follows, and I preface this by saying it's very spout-offy, and that I intend to offend no one:

What does any of this actually matter? EL tables based on a number of enemies of the same CR seems about as useful as udders on a bull, since most encounters of multiple creatures will be comprised of a spread of CRs within a certain range.

Who actually understands half of this? I don't. All I see are spreads of numbers with "EL +x" and that means nothing to me.
"EL +" implies a base number. What's the base? The mode, or the mean CR? Whose CR? The monster, the party? With all the changes invoked by the UKU (Upper_Krust Universe), I don't know which way is up anymore.
Isn't there some way to toss out all these damn abbreviation nightmares and consolidate the numbers into something a little more intuitive than HD, EL, CR, ECL? I mean, when we look at a PC, what are we supposed to take note of? What about a monster? Or a monster with class levels? Or a monster with NPC class levels? Or a monster with a template?

Sorry for being so high-strung on this, but I haven't been able to wrap my head around either the means or the need for them to reach the end result of figuring out how much XP to give a party.