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D&D 5E Champion Fighter level 11 only one shot with crossbow?

Coredump

Explorer
There's "no need" for a lot of things that happen in combat. Civil War-era rifles could fire three aimed shots per minute--so why did battles last all day? In theory both sides could inflict crippling casualties on each other in sixty seconds, and yet they didn't, perhaps due to human factors. Maybe slingers ran back and forth for the same reason. After all, dodgeball players do the same, and it's not because they can't throw one-handed.
Maybe....
Could be...
So why did...

That is a far cry from "this video shows it is easily accomplished" Bringing up things like Civil War battles dodge ball games doesn't really do anything to advance the conversation.

The *concept* he brings up involves throwing the stone, then somehow getting the cup of the sling into the shield hand, then grabbing a stone with the sling hand, and putting the stone into the cup/shield hand, then grabbing the other end of the sling with the sling hand, then swinging the sling again. All while *still* using the shield as a shield. He never bothered to demonstrate actually doing it (not that he is a trained fighter, but something to show proof of concept would be nice). Instead we get a handwave of ' of course it will work'

I can design a shield that still allows me to wield a polearm or greatsword. Doesn't mean I can still use the shield as a shield anymore.

And it doesn't meant it works within the rules framework. I could also argue that I could use the shield hand for other uses, like holding material components, or making Somatic motions, or use it to hold onto a polearm, or use it to climb a cliff, or whatever else you normally need a 'free hand' for.
 

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famousringo

First Post
Maybe....
Could be...
So why did...

That is a far cry from "this video shows it is easily accomplished" Bringing up things like Civil War battles dodge ball games doesn't really do anything to advance the conversation.

The *concept* he brings up involves throwing the stone, then somehow getting the cup of the sling into the shield hand, then grabbing a stone with the sling hand, and putting the stone into the cup/shield hand, then grabbing the other end of the sling with the sling hand, then swinging the sling again. All while *still* using the shield as a shield. He never bothered to demonstrate actually doing it (not that he is a trained fighter, but something to show proof of concept would be nice). Instead we get a handwave of ' of course it will work'

I can design a shield that still allows me to wield a polearm or greatsword. Doesn't mean I can still use the shield as a shield anymore.

And it doesn't meant it works within the rules framework. I could also argue that I could use the shield hand for other uses, like holding material components, or making Somatic motions, or use it to hold onto a polearm, or use it to climb a cliff, or whatever else you normally need a 'free hand' for.
The fact it doesn't say "two-handed" next to "sling" in the weapon table satisfies your concerns about the rules framework. Sling + shield is the rules. You're the one arguing for an exception.

As for historical use of shields by slingers, I count five ancient depictions on this page:

http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=5&m5returnid=53&page=53

I suppose they may have all ran away, put away their shield, loaded their sling, and ran back to battle, as you suggest. Or they used their shield hands to help load.

Or they may have used another suggested technique which doesn't involve the second hand at all. Drop to a crouch so the pouch of the sling lies on the ground while drawing a bullet with the sling hand, place the bullet in the pouch, grab the string and stand back up. Not only have you loaded the sling entirely one-handed, your reduced profile while crouching maximizes the shield's protection.

Sorry, I don't have any videos that meet your standard of proof.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I disagree with MerricB's read of the rules.* I don't think the list Interactions with Objects Around You (which includes drawing or sheathing a sword) was meant to be a list of things limited to one free interaction, but rather simply a non-exhaustive of things that didn't require the PC to use their action. It was meant to be freeing, rather than limiting. A clear statement that you didn't have to use an action to draw or sheathe a sword, you could just do it at the same time as your move or your other action.

While I completely agree that the rules should be arbitrated by a DM - and this is one of the many examples of rules I'd feel quite happy imposing another interpretation on - if you're a two-weapon fighter, why do you need a feat to draw both weapons at once? That feat - as well as the object interaction rules (PHB 190) - point to the "only one weapon drawn each turn" rule. The ammunition property also works toward that interpretation; you need something to get around the basic rule.

Cheers!
 

Taronkov

Explorer
Check the description of the ammunition property in the equipment chapter.

I'll admit I missed that.

I would honestly still ignore it if you had a quiver setup for a javelin or a setup for throwing knives/darts as still being part of the attack. It take far less time to draw a knife and throw it than draw an arrow, knock it and aim and fire. I would require it to be part of your equipment list or description for how you were carrying it at that point though. If you're just drawing random knives stowed about your body I can agree with the limit. Otherwise it penalizes a short range fighter for no balance reason I can see. Especially when there is a feat to get around things like the loading feature of a crossbow that allows you to draw, load, cock and fire without limit which takes substantially more time.
 

Coredump

Explorer
The fact it doesn't say "two-handed" next to "sling" in the weapon table satisfies your concerns about the rules framework. Sling + shield is the rules. You're the one arguing for an exception.
No one is debating that you can fire the sling with only one hand. The issue here is if you can load it with only one hand. And no, the rules do not say you can load it with only one hand, nor were the rules intended to say you could load them with one hand. (Or at least that is what Crawford has said)

As for historical use of shields by slingers, I count five ancient depictions on this page:

http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=5&m5returnid=53&page=53

I suppose they may have all ran away, put away their shield, loaded their sling, and ran back to battle, as you suggest. Or they used their shield hands to help load.
Cool resource.
But it still does not answer the question "Is a slinger able to operate the a sling as well with a shield as without, and still be able to use the shield as a shield." It is quite reasonable that the historically, the slingers pictured would either use the shield when not slinging, or were willing to drastically slow down their offense in exchange for more defense.

Or they may have used another suggested technique which doesn't involve the second hand at all. Drop to a crouch so the pouch of the sling lies on the ground while drawing a bullet with the sling hand, place the bullet in the pouch, grab the string and stand back up. Not only have you loaded the sling entirely one-handed, your reduced profile while crouching maximizes the shield's protection.
Yeah... because that doesn't sound like the epitome of fumbling around. Crouch down, position the cup and turn it the right way while holding onto the cord, while holding the end of the cord, reach down into your bag grab a stone, place it in the cup. grab the other end of the cord. Then stand back up, twirl and fire....
And lets not forget, you need to do most of this without looking down very much.

Sounds like a piece of cake.....
 


famousringo

First Post
No one is debating that you can fire the sling with only one hand. The issue here is if you can load it with only one hand. And no, the rules do not say you can load it with only one hand, nor were the rules intended to say you could load them with one hand. (Or at least that is what Crawford has said)

Cool resource.
But it still does not answer the question "Is a slinger able to operate the a sling as well with a shield as without, and still be able to use the shield as a shield." It is quite reasonable that the historically, the slingers pictured would either use the shield when not slinging, or were willing to drastically slow down their offense in exchange for more defense.

Yeah... because that doesn't sound like the epitome of fumbling around. Crouch down, position the cup and turn it the right way while holding onto the cord, while holding the end of the cord, reach down into your bag grab a stone, place it in the cup. grab the other end of the cord. Then stand back up, twirl and fire....
And lets not forget, you need to do most of this without looking down very much.

Sounds like a piece of cake.....

"Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack."

The attack is one handed. Drawing the ammunition is part of the attack. You seem to be describing some loading action that doesn't exist.

Your description is obviously designed to sound needlessly complicated. The bullet can easily be drawn as you are crouching, so no need to spend so much time on your knees. One end of the sling is always looped on the finger or wrist, otherwise slingers would be throwing away their slings all the time, so there's no need to hold it. Most sling cups don't have a "right way." In fact, the most accurate design simply splits the cord in the middle into two cords that the stone rests between. The weight keeps it in place.

Why can't you look down?

Edit: I do believe I've finally dug up the video evidence you demand:

http://youtu.be/Kz0DPMU5hwg

http://youtu.be/bapNApChPp8

I also dug up a photo series of a guy using the same technique with a single grip shield and a few more 12th century depictions of shielded slingers (bottom of page).

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1282647004/0

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1257503658/30

I do hope you'll accept this as proof that shield and sling can be used in conjunction, rather than going, "Ah-hah! But they used their second hand to help load the sling! Hand economy broken!"

Because that would be lame.
 
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Iosue

Legend
While I completely agree that the rules should be arbitrated by a DM - and this is one of the many examples of rules I'd feel quite happy imposing another interpretation on - if you're a two-weapon fighter, why do you need a feat to draw both weapons at once? That feat - as well as the object interaction rules (PHB 190) - point to the "only one weapon drawn each turn" rule. The ammunition property also works toward that interpretation; you need something to get around the basic rule.

Cheers!

I don't see the sentence in the ammunition property as being a positive prohibition from thrown weapons without that property combining a draw and attack. The design of 5e places great discretion in the hands of the DM, and both that sentence and the list of object interactions read to me as guides to DMs to allow those actions without forcing players to use their actions for relative minutia. IOW, I see them as indications that the drawing and throwing of javelins (and other thrown weapons such as daggers) should be part of the attack, not as a limit.

As for the dual wielder feat, the weapon drawing aspect is there, by my read, because there will be many dual-wielders who don't have Extra Attacks. Rogues, for example. Fighters and Rangers before 5th level. The feat allows them to be good to go with just their regular attack and bonus action attack. But a character with Extra Attacks should, by my read, be able to draw a weapon and attack with it on each attack.

For example, let us assume we have a TWF Fighter, 5th level, without Dual Wielder. They start combat with both light weapons sheathed. On their turn they use part of their move 15 feet to one enemy and attack with one light weapon. Then they move 15 feet to another enemy and attack again. At this point, should they be able to use their bonus action attack? I think yes.

Let's look at a 11th level fighter, without TWF or Dual Wielder. They have a regular longsword and a silver dagger. They start combat with both light weapons sheathed. On their turn they move 10 feet to one enemy and attack with their longsword. For their next attack they move 10 feet to another enemy and again attack with their longsword. On their third attack they move 10 feet to a lycanthrope enemy, and drop their longsword and attack with the silver dagger. Possible? I think yes.

I think both of these examples are corner cases, because generally melee weapons don't require the amount of drawing one sees in thrown weapons. And I think there's enough ambiguity in the rules that DMs could rule in a number of ways; very loose for a more cinematic game, very tight for a more realistic game. But I don't think the rules positively prohibit the above to the degree that we're talking houserules.
 

I think it's worth noting that if you allow characters to draw melee thrown weapons like ammunition, it wouldn't make much sense to not allow them to draw two melee thrown weapons (like handaxes) at once and just use them in melee. Of course that would be a direct conflict with the one item interaction rule on drawing weapons, and would make the "thrown" property be a melee buff rather than just a ranged feature. Not exactly what I'd say is rules as intended.

On the other hand, a thrown weapon that cannot be used in melee (except improvised), such as a dart, is a different story. It wouldn't conflict with anything to allow a character to draw darts like ammo. Maybe that's even the intent and the reason that darts are basically weaker daggers. It would give them something other than price to their credit.
 

Larac

First Post
I think the case is that it was missed as the lawyers had not invaded the rules at that time.

The Heavy Crossbow should be Move & Shoot, Stop Reload (full Round action nothing else), Move And Shoot.
It would not be out of place to say 2 Full round actions really.

But it would never get used unless it did massive Damage and then it becomes a Nova strike.

Now comparing pulling a javelin to that seems very odd.

Growing up we had a single shot shotgun, my mother could cycle 5 rounds through it in under 10 secs.
That took skill and practice, One in chamber, 4 shells between fingers in off hand.

I think our heroes practice at least as much as a farmer does with weapons, and arrange those weapons for best use.

The only pull one weapon while fighting two handed I would hope is a left over part of rules that was missed when cut, as it really jars against the rest of the flow of 5e.
There is a huge difference between a trained Fighter drawing two weapons, and some one using levers to interact with an object they have never seen.
Intent of rules IMHO.

As GM run it how you wish as that is the core of RPGs.
Just remember to ask is the change making the game more fun, or more mundane.
 

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