Champion of Correlon

[Ruvion]

The character doesn't have to wear platemail, he'll just gradually aquire the ability to wear heavier armors while retaining his full dex bonus.

He can move into heavier armors when he's ready for them and never have to use a sub-optimal combinaiton.

well finessed fighters are underpowered anyways...

 

[gabrion]

well finessed fighters are underpowered anyways...

Because the elven swashbuckler/fighter/corellon adding STR, INT and DEX to damage, while maintaining a good AC and attack bonus is really weak.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In anything less that a 36 point buy game, he may not be weak but he won't be overpowering.

If we assume Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4 heading into the class and compare it to a fighter 12:

With a two handed weapon, the Champion of Corellon needs to add at least 4 points of damage (2 point from Greater Weapon Focus turned into power attack and 2 points from greater weapon specialization). Realistically, the champion of Corellon will need to add slightly more than that since the need for high dexterity and int will put pressure on his strength stat.

With a one-handed weapon, the Champion of Corellon only needs to add 3 points to draw even.

If one assumes that the Champion of Correllon starts with the standard 15 14 13 12 10 8 array and puts 14 in con (because, let's face it, he has to live to do damage, 15 in dex, 13 in strength, and 12 in int (leaving a 10 and an 8 for wisdom and charisma), it adds up to 2 points before enhancement bonusses are applied. But, if we assume that he gets a +6 headband of intellect and +6 gloves of dex, then it adds up to 8 extra points of damage at an additional cost of 68,000gp vis a vis the adamantine fullplate fighter (who we may assume uses gloves of dex +2).

If the adamantine fullplate fighter adds an extra +2 of enhancement equivalents to his weapon instead the cost will not exceed 72,000gp (from a +8 equivalent to a +10 equivalent weapon). Now, straight up enhancement bonusses would reduce the difference by two points and leave the fighter with only a 2 point deficit which he could easily eliminate by power attacking for two more points (which actually leaves him 2 points ahead of the CoC in damage) or simply by getting 1.5x str on a much higher strength bonus. If the fighter assumes that both characters' weapons will be GMWed to +5 anyway, the fighter can still add Holy, Wounding, or a pair of elemental enhancements to the weapon which will easily exceed the 6 points of damage he got from power attack and enhancment bonus.

So, unless the Champion of Corellon has really good stats, he won't be blowing a strength-based fighter out of the water. But, if you allow really good stats.... watch out! By the time you hit 36 point buy, the Champion of Corellon can expect to get four additional points of damage out of his secondary stats, putting him solidly ahead of the fighter.

Because the elven swashbuckler/fighter/corellon adding STR, INT and DEX to damage, while maintaining a good AC and attack bonus is really weak.

 

[gabrion]

Well just remember that the post I was repsonding to was calling finesse fighters underpowered. I never claimed the swashbuckler guy would be amazing, but underpowered is definately not the way to describe him. Since you did such an injustice in your explaination though, let me say a few things.

One point to keep in mind is that via point buy it is far easier to get a character with multiple mid/high stats than one or two really high ones. Since the fighter will require a high STR to do a lot of damage, having to pump a bunch of points in it will be much more taxing than having the swashbuckler raise multiple abilities, all of which will eventually add to his damage. This is an automatic advantage for the finesse fighter.

Also on stats, your comparison was really unfair with the "standard array." I think a better example would be using 28 point buy which could give him 14s in STR, DEX, CON, and INT, with a 10 in WIS and 8 in CHA. That gives him a total of +6 to damage, while the fighter, if he is willing to spend over half his points to max strength and wields a two handed weapon would do the same.

The same logic holds later on when it comes to buying items, it is a lot cheaper for the finesse guy. Why? Well the fighter has to buy a belt of STR +6 for 36,000 to add 4 points of damage, while the swashbuckler can add gloves of DEX +2, belt of STR +2, and headband of INT +2 for 12,000 gp, adding 3 points of damage. Or if he spends as much as the fighter, he can increase damage output by 6 points. The fact is that having muliple abilities add to damage is far more efficient. Lets not forget that while we are discussing damage output, this game also has other aspects, such as skills. The swashbuckler shines here as well.

If we are going to talk finesse fighters we should give a shout out to the Iajutsu Master too, but I don't think that is really fair. In any case, I still maintain that finesse fighters don't own the game by any means, but a comment about them being underpowered shows a lack of understanding.

 

[Ruvion]

Well just remember that the post I was repsonding to was calling finesse fighters underpowered. I never claimed the swashbuckler guy would be amazing, but underpowered is definately not the way to describe him. Since you did such an injustice in your explaination though, let me say a few things.

[SNIP]

If we are going to talk finesse fighters we should give a shout out to the Iajutsu Master too, but I don't think that is really fair. In any case, I still maintain that finesse fighters don't own the game by any means, but a comment about them being underpowered shows a lack of understanding.

Hmmm...IME, finessed fighters do not always mean swashbuckler nor Iaijutsu Master (Iaijutsu bonus damage can only be dealt on the first round against flatfooted foes right?) nor Champion of Corellon. Although the above classes do represent aspects of finessed fighting. I have some experience of playing a few finessed fighters in my play time and found that just because you can create a broken combo with this finessed build (and 'lo you can create such a build with almost any class, except maybe bard ), does not NOT make finessed fighter a lower performer compared to regular tanks/damage dealers. Heh.

A gross oversimplification of the situation that finessed fighters find themselves in...maybe. Lack of understanding, I dont't think so.

 

[Scratched_back]

Is the CoC extra damage applied only to creatures vunerable to criticals etc?

Could be a big swinging point in this arguement... a fighter doing his damage to anything...

 

[gabrion]

A gross oversimplification of the situation that finessed fighters find themselves in...maybe. Lack of understanding, I dont't think so.

Fair enough. I didn't meant to sound like you don't know what you are talking about, but as long as we know it was a bit of an oversimplification I'm fine with that.

Is the CoC extra damage applied only to creatures vunerable to criticals etc?

Could be a big swinging point in this arguement... a fighter doing his damage to anything...

This is actually an important point, and the answer is that the CoCs elegant strike does not apply to creatures immune to criticals or sneak attacks. Which also makes me realize I responded to Ruvion but never to the OP, so let me just say this. The CoC is a very nice PrC, but IMO all it does is finally give us the option to play an elf as a melee tank. Finally.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well just remember that the post I was repsonding to was calling finesse fighters underpowered. I never claimed the swashbuckler guy would be amazing, but underpowered is definately not the way to describe him. Since you did such an injustice in your explaination though, let me say a few things.

One point to keep in mind is that via point buy it is far easier to get a character with multiple mid/high stats than one or two really high ones. Since the fighter will require a high STR to do a lot of damage, having to pump a bunch of points in it will be much more taxing than having the swashbuckler raise multiple abilities, all of which will eventually add to his damage. This is an automatic advantage for the finesse fighter.

Also on stats, your comparison was really unfair with the "standard array." I think a better example would be using 28 point buy which could give him 14s in STR, DEX, CON, and INT, with a 10 in WIS and 8 in CHA. That gives him a total of +6 to damage, while the fighter, if he is willing to spend over half his points to max strength and wields a two handed weapon would do the same.

A fair point, but I think you're overstating it. First, not everyone uses point buy (even though I do) and one thing that the standard array is good at is demonstrating priorities. Rolling, you are probably less likely to get get four mediocre stats than to get one higher stat and a few mediocre ones with a poor stat or two.

Second, I'm not sure at what point the CoC gets the dex to damage bonus but he doesn't get it starting at first level. To even out a 28 point buy comparison, we should probably look at 8th level (when you could first take Champion of Corellon levels). So the champion started with str 14, dex 16, con 12, int 14, wis 10, cha 10 and now has str 14, dex 18, con 12, int 14, wis 10, cha 10. The fighter started with (lets say) Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 and now has Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8. With his elven courtblade, the Champion of Correllon will get +9 damage and the fighter will get +6-- +2 for being able to power attack for the greater weapon focus difference. It's still pretty similar.

The same logic holds later on when it comes to buying items, it is a lot cheaper for the finesse guy. Why? Well the fighter has to buy a belt of STR +6 for 36,000 to add 4 points of damage, while the swashbuckler can add gloves of DEX +2, belt of STR +2, and headband of INT +2 for 12,000 gp, adding 3 points of damage.

He could if there were a belt of strength +2. Since there isn't, however, he'll have to dex or strength at the +2 mark.

Or if he spends as much as the fighter, he can increase damage output by 6 points. The fact is that having muliple abilities add to damage is far more efficient.

It's certainly more flexible and can be more efficient. However, it's important to keep in mind that there's more than one way to add to damage. For instance, taking the 8th level stats and advancing them to 11th level where they may have enough money for the items in question, it's important to note that the Champion of Correllon will be attacking at +17/+12/+7 [+11 BAB, +5 dex (w/gloves), +1 weapon focus] while the fighter will be attacking at +20/+15/+10 [+11 BAB, +7 str (w/ belt), +2 greater weapon focus]. So the fighter can use power attack to turn the attack bonus differential into 6 more points of damage. It's important to remember that strength adds attack and damage for the fighter whereas the CoC only gets to add one ability to his attacks AFAIK.

Alternatively, a fighter who wants to beat the Champion of Correllon for damage could spend his money on a better weapon instead of going from a belt +4 to a belt +6. 20kgp should net him one or two plusses of special abilities on the weapon which will easily outdamage the stat booster damage adds. (+2 damage is less than +3.5 from an energy enhancement or even +3 from straight up enhancement bonus +more power attack).

Lets not forget that while we are discussing damage output, this game also has other aspects, such as skills. The swashbuckler shines here as well.

True, but so do barbarians, paladins, and high int, multiclassed fighters (at least potentially). The single classed fighter is about the only class that doesn't do skills well. The other classes can be very competitive in damage as well. I chose the fighter as a comparison point because: 1. I think fighters are the basic fighting class from which things should be measured and 2. Fighters are fairly easy to compare.

If we are going to talk finesse fighters we should give a shout out to the Iajutsu Master too, but I don't think that is really fair. In any case, I still maintain that finesse fighters don't own the game by any means, but a comment about them being underpowered shows a lack of understanding.

I'm quite sure that finesse fighters can be effective, but it takes a fair amount of skill to create an effective finesse fighter and to keep the finesse fighter effective. My experience indicates that, if I see a random finesse fighter at a con table, he's likely to be underpowered--and if he isn't underpowered, he's making up for his lack of damage dealing capability by doing something else.

 

[gabrion]

Well I think we are mostly in agreement (there are viable ways to make each kind of fighter), but I just had a few things to say...

Second, I'm not sure at what point the CoC gets the dex to damage bonus but he doesn't get it starting at first level.

He gets it at second level, IIRC, which is still pretty early. Of course since you can't get into the PrC until 7th level, this is a bit of a setback.

He could if there were a belt of strength +2. Since there isn't, however, he'll have to dex or strength at the +2 mark.

Well using the item creation rules he can just put the item in a belt spot, since it matches the affinity.

It's important to remember that strength adds attack and damage for the fighter whereas the CoC only gets to add one ability to his attacks AFAIK.

I think I understood what you were saying here, but how does the fighter have an advantage? He adds STR to attack and damage, whereas the CoC adds DEX to attack plus DEX, INT, and STR to damage, as well as DEX to AC. The CoC only adds one ability to his attacks, but so does the fighter, right? The difference is how many abilities they add to damage.

Alternatively, a fighter who wants to beat the Champion of Correllon for damage could spend his money on a better weapon instead of going from a belt +4 to a belt +6. 20kgp should net him one or two plusses of special abilities on the weapon which will easily outdamage the stat booster damage adds. (+2 damage is less than +3.5 from an energy enhancement or even +3 from straight up enhancement bonus +more power attack).

The whole point is that it is cheaper for the swash/CoC than for the fighter. So the fighter only buys a +4 belt and then buys a +1 flaming shock weapon, giving +11 to damage for about 34,000. The finesse guy can still buy the three +2 items and the +1 flaming shock weapon, adding 11 to damage, and it will only cost 30,000.

True, but so do barbarians, paladins, and high int, multiclassed fighters (at least potentially). The single classed fighter is about the only class that doesn't do skills well. The other classes can be very competitive in damage as well. I chose the fighter as a comparison point because: 1. I think fighters are the basic fighting class from which things should be measured and 2. Fighters are fairly easy to compare.

Barbs have 4+Int skill points each level and usually don't focus on INT. Paladins have 2+Int and also can't afford to put many points into Int. Swashbucklers get 6+Int and usually have a high Int to boot, since it is important for them.

I'm quite sure that finesse fighters can be effective, but it takes a fair amount of skill to create an effective finesse fighter and to keep the finesse fighter effective. My experience indicates that, if I see a random finesse fighter at a con table, he's likely to be underpowered--and if he isn't underpowered, he's making up for his lack of damage dealing capability by doing something else.

Ya, I guess it is a lot easier to make a badass smash things fighter than it is to make a finesse one (at least the rules seem to provide easier ways for the smashy type), and many people don't bother. That said, it either option is obviously viable.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think I understood what you were saying here, but how does the fighter have an advantage? He adds STR to attack and damage, whereas the CoC adds DEX to attack plus DEX, INT, and STR to damage, as well as DEX to AC. The CoC only adds one ability to his attacks, but so does the fighter, right? The difference is how many abilities they add to damage.

The argument you were making is that a champion of Corellon can get the same result from a +2 dex, +2 int, and +2 str that a fighter gets from +6 str. Now, he gets the same damage (against crittable foes) from that, but he only gets +1 to hit.

So, while adding more abilities to damage never hurts, it's not as advantageous to have one point of damage from each of three abilities as it is to have three points of attack and 4-5 points of damage from one ability. At the high end, a Champion of Correllon can have +6 str, +6 dex, and +6 int items yielding a six point damage advantage. However, he can't duplicate the utility of a +6 str item by adding to his dex and int.

The whole point is that it is cheaper for the swash/CoC than for the fighter. So the fighter only buys a +4 belt and then buys a +1 flaming shock weapon, giving +11 to damage for about 34,000. The finesse guy can still buy the three +2 items and the +1 flaming shock weapon, adding 11 to damage, and it will only cost 30,000.

You know, I think you should be right, but every time I run the numbers, the finesse guy is coming out behind. In this case, he's even on damage, but behind by one point in the attack department. Since we're talking two-handed weapons and power attack is a given, that makes him behind by two points of damage.

Barbs have 4+Int skill points each level and usually don't focus on INT. Paladins have 2+Int and also can't afford to put many points into Int. Swashbucklers get 6+Int and usually have a high Int to boot, since it is important for them.

In my copy of Complete Warrior, swashbucklers get 4+Int skill points. I'll give you the int, but you need to keep in mind that the swashbuckler/fighter/champion of Corellon being discussed here has to be an elf or half elf and has to take four levels of fighter, so unless Champion of Correllon gives 6 skillpoints/level, he's not going to be terribly impressive in terms of skills. His skillpoint total is likely to come out only slightly ahead of a human fighter and even with a human fighter who started off with two barbarian levels.

Ya, I guess it is a lot easier to make a badass smash things fighter than it is to make a finesse one (at least the rules seem to provide easier ways for the smashy type), and many people don't bother. That said, it either option is obviously viable.

And finesse fighters tend to have a bit of trouble against undead too.

However, I suspect that the Champion of Correllon will come out a lot better if he's compared to a fighter who uses a one-handed weapon and with the ability to ignore the max dex on armor, he probably performs really well in the sword and board tank role. Depending upon the wording of his dex to damage ability, he may also perform very well in the two weapon fighting style.