D&D 5E Changing Spell Elemental Damage

[MindxKiller]

So I was imagining a draconic sorcerer with a black dragon heritage (green for RP, black for all the mechanical gamey bits) however there aren't too many acid spells available to sorcerers, to my knowledge only 3 if you include Chromatic Orb and Elemental Evil pdf, not to mention that the best blast spells are fire. Would it be overpowered to retool scorching ray to deal acid damage instead of fire? What about Firebolt and Fireball? I'm a forever player so I don't quite have the system mastery of some DM's, hence why I'm curious if this character concept could be pulled off without being gimped. Thank you to all who help me figure this out!

 

[ad_hoc]

I think it would be fine to just let them have Melf's Acid Arrow.

AFAIK they don't have it for theme reasons.

 

[MindxKiller]

I think it would be fine to just let them have Melf's Acid Arrow.

AFAIK they don't have it for theme reasons.

The problem with that is Melf's Acid Arrow is an awful spell, a level 2 Chromatic Orb would do more damage, hell you might as well just cast a level 2 Magic Missile since its only 1 average damage less and auto hits.

 

[Larrin]

Mechanics-wise: an acid-dragon sorcerer casting fire spells that are retooled with acid damage should not be any more powerful than a fire-dragon sorcerer casting those same spells in their original form. So from a balance standpoint, it is probably not overpowered to do this.

Flavor-wise: This is where things can feel wrong. It does cheapen a spell's identity to just swap its damage type to whatever you happen to be playing at the time. On the other hand, a acid-dragon sorcerer currently has plenty of flavor, but nothing to use that flavor on, so maybe cheapening spell flavor is the right move.

A possible solution: work with DM to take a spell like fireball and make acidball be something more than just fire-ball with acid damage: maybe take all the fire spells and to make them acid spells split the damage it deals between this round and next round: acidball does 4d6 acid damage ref save for half, and next round (whether you save or not) take 4d6 acid (con save for half). Something like that makes the spells have their own identity, so they don't just look like cheap pallette swaps.

Of course, its probably easier to talk a DM into a simple damage type shift than rewritting a dozen spells, so YMMV a lot...

Bottom line: Do whatever you can to get access to more acid spells, improvising 'new' acid spells based on other spells won't shift the game balance all that much.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Would it be overpowered to retool scorching ray to deal acid damage instead of fire? What about Firebolt and Fireball?

Yes, it would be overpowered to change any fire spell to any other damage type. Fire spells and effects deal more damage because there are more creatures which resist fire. This is an important aspect of how they are balanced. You can also see this with magic weapons, where the flametongue deals +2d6 fire damage and the frostbrand only deals +1d6 cold damage. If you wanted to create an Acidbolt or Acidball, they would need to deal less damage in order to be balanced.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The problem with that is Melf's Acid Arrow is an awful spell, a level 2 Chromatic Orb would do more damage.

That depends. If you have a 40% chance of missing the attack, melf's acid arrow and a 2nd level chromatic orb actually have the same average damage, and if you have a higher miss chance melf's acid arrow actually deals more damage on average, which is the benefit of dealing half damage on a miss.

As for the question of whether it would be overpowered to just change scorching ray to dealing acid damage, I can't say that it would be too powerful for the game to handle (it probably isn't), but I can say that acid is absolutely a more powerful damage type than fire because it is less common that things have resistance or immunity to acid damage - so if you are wanting to not change the balance of the game at all, you would want to avoid changing fire damage to another type of damage without there being some drawback, such as reducing the damage from 2d6 per ray to 2d4 or 1d10 per ray.

 

[MindxKiller]

Yes, it would be overpowered to change any fire spell to any other damage type. Fire spells and effects deal more damage because there are more creatures which resist fire. This is an important aspect of how they are balanced. You can also see this with magic weapons, where the flametongue deals +2d6 fire damage and the frostbrand only deals +1d6 cold damage. If you wanted to create an Acidbolt or Acidball, they would need to deal less damage in order to be balanced.

Comparing flame tongue to frost brand isn't a good comparison because frost brand also gives resistance to fire, the rest of your comment makes sense though. Though when you really look at the monster manual, there are only 38 fire resistant creatures out of roughly 430, and only 40 fire immune, 8 of which being "good" creatures that you are unlikely to battle. However, the vast majority of things that resist fire or are immune to fire are devils/demons, the rest being red dragons and elementals and aside from elementals those are usually saved for rare occasions in most D&D campaigns. The downside of a red dragon sorcerer is so miniscule that the slightly less common acid resist/immunity doesn't seem very powerful, whose to say the dragon isn't black instead of red? Also, while very small, there are a few creatures vulnerable to fire, yet nothing is vulnerable to acid. When you look at the whole picture, I'd say its a wash.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Though when you really look at the monster manual, there are only 38 fire resistant creatures out of roughly 430, and only 40 fire immune, 8 of which being "good" creatures that you are unlikely to battle. However, the vast majority of things that resist fire or are immune to fire are devils/demons, the rest being red dragons and elementals and aside from elementals those are usually saved for rare occasions in most D&D campaigns.

Demons/devils and dragons are iconic big bads, though. Fire will fail you when you need it most, but is slightly more effective against the weaker foes you could probably beat anyway.

The boss dragon at the end of the adventure could be black, but it's probably going to be red. That's just how things tend to work out, unless there's a very specific reason to the contrary. It's kind of like how swords are more popular than axes, so you're more likely to find a magic sword than a magic axe.

 

[Sunseeker]

I allow spells to be reflavored into another damage type. If a player wants this option I basically say "You can either take the original, or the mechanically identical spell with the damage of the type you want. Not both. Ever." It makes no difference to me, it just means you're going to be pretty useless when we run into things immune to acid.

 

[Creamsteak]

On the topic at-hand, fire is the most fleshed out of any elemental damage type and it's also the most resisted besides... I think... poison. Poison is sort of a special snowflake and there are just a ton of different categories of creatures that are straight-up immune to it.

Scorching Ray in particular is also interesting, as written I believe, in that it gains the benefit of the dragon sorcerer's damage multiple times.

Another note is that in this edition, unlike 3e/3.5e/Pathfinder at least, you don't need a ton of spells to cover your damage needs. You just need some general bases covered as a sorcerer. You need something good for single target, something good as a single-action cantrip, and something for AOE and/or Multi-target.

Acid has a cantrip, and it's actually one of the higher damage cantrips when 2 enemies are next to each other, with the disadvantage being that the damage is spread out over multiple targets (which is kinda fine for dragon sorcerer since you'll add +Cha to damage on both as well).

Chromatic Orb isn't... bad... but it's not competitive with most things.

Melf's Acid Arrow doesn't seem that bad to me. You're also adding +Cha damage on the second turn, and you can twin-spell it. It's fairly par with scorching ray till you start stacking up those rays and those extra +Cha modifiers.

What's really missing is an AOE or multi-target effect. Acid Fog is an iconic one from previous editions that you might be able to re-skin.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acid-fog

6th level spells though are pretty high for your first real aoe damage. Either way, at my table I'd try to figure out something reasonable to make any element work. I also want them to all have slightly different special things about them, and fire seems to be straight up about burning things with damage. That seems like the gimmick it has been given. Acid... so-far (ignoring Chromatic Sphere) seems to be multi-hit (either multiple targets or multiple rounds) where the damage might even be a little bit better than fire if whatever special circumstances are met and you don't mind the fact your damage is spread out (over multiple targets or multiple turns).

 

[Minigiant]

Fire spells deal the most damage due to the assumption that fire is right after necrotic and poison as most resist.
Acid is only of the least resisted types on the same level and lightning.


Redo Fire spells as Acid= Overpowered
Redo Lightning spells as Acid= No problem

Witch Bolt becomes Caustic Link
Lightning Bolt becomes Acid Stream
Chain Lightning becomes Chain Acid

 

[MindxKiller]

On the topic at-hand, fire is the most fleshed out of any elemental damage type and it's also the most resisted besides... I think... poison. Poison is sort of a special snowflake and there are just a ton of different categories of creatures that are straight-up immune to it.

Scorching Ray in particular is also interesting, as written I believe, in that it gains the benefit of the dragon sorcerer's damage multiple times.

Another note is that in this edition, unlike 3e/3.5e/Pathfinder at least, you don't need a ton of spells to cover your damage needs. You just need some general bases covered as a sorcerer. You need something good for single target, something good as a single-action cantrip, and something for AOE and/or Multi-target.

Acid has a cantrip, and it's actually one of the higher damage cantrips when 2 enemies are next to each other, with the disadvantage being that the damage is spread out over multiple targets (which is kinda fine for dragon sorcerer since you'll add +Cha to damage on both as well).

Chromatic Orb isn't... bad... but it's not competitive with most things.

Melf's Acid Arrow doesn't seem that bad to me. You're also adding +Cha damage on the second turn, and you can twin-spell it. It's fairly par with scorching ray till you start stacking up those rays and those extra +Cha modifiers.

What's really missing is an AOE or multi-target effect. Acid Fog is an iconic one from previous editions that you might be able to re-skin.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acid-fog

6th level spells though are pretty high for your first real aoe damage. Either way, at my table I'd try to figure out something reasonable to make any element work. I also want them to all have slightly different special things about them, and fire seems to be straight up about burning things with damage. That seems like the gimmick it has been given. Acid... so-far (ignoring Chromatic Sphere) seems to be multi-hit (either multiple targets or multiple rounds) where the damage might even be a little bit better than fire if whatever special circumstances are met and you don't mind the fact your damage is spread out (over multiple targets or multiple turns).

The +cha dragon sorcerer ability was errata'd to clarify that it is only a single time per spell, so scorching ray only adds charisma for a single ray, and melfs acid arrow only adds charisma to the initial damage. As for melfs acid arrow not being a bad spell, on average it deals only a single point of damage more than a magic missile of the same level, yet has the ability to be resisted, and if resisted it deals absolutely pitiful damage, compared to scorching ray and there isn't even a contest between the two spells. Acid Splash wont add +cha to both targets, and while a good cantrip if there are two targets next to each other, it falls short very quickly in a single target comparison.

 

[MindxKiller]

Fire spells deal the most damage due to the assumption that fire is right after necrotic and poison as most resist.
Acid is only of the least resisted types on the same level and lightning.


Redo Fire spells as Acid= Overpowered
Redo Lightning spells as Acid= No problem

Witch Bolt becomes Caustic Link
Lightning Bolt becomes Acid Stream
Chain Lightning becomes Chain Acid

I wouldn't mind that as an alternative, though I would have to mention that lightning is almost identical to fire in number of creatures resistant, though only 1/4th the number of immunities, and necrotic is even less resisted/immune than acid...

 

[steeldragons]

I'd just work with the DM to get you a few things (1 or 2 per spell level) that can be yours and/or switch to acid if there isn't one. Also, black dragons aren't really just about "acid", they're about decay, putrification, swamps.

Off the top of my head, for a Black Dragon sorcerer, I'd go with:
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Poison Spray (maybe add the option for acid instead of poison damage, only if you want, instead). Both of these the Sorcerer already gets. You're fine here.
1st: Chromatic Orb (ask if you can use the acid orb for damage one level higher than the slot you use, but as is is fine I think), Ray of Sickness. Sorcerer already gets these too.
2nd: Melf's Acid Arrow (and I concur, yes, turning Scorching Ray to acid damage is very overpowered).
3rd: rather than reflavoring Fireball or Lightning Bolts (both of which I think would be a bad idea), I'd go with taking Stinking Cloud and giving that 4d6 acid damage (save for half, obviously), on top of the nausea/sickening save.
4th: Blight, reflavored as acid burning away the plants (or the anything, really), which sorcerer's already have.
5th: Cloudkill, refluffed as half-poison and half-acid damage (or 2d8 poison, 3d8 acid or whatever proportions you want). Again, Sorcerers already have this.

I think you're doing just fine for damage spells. Just throw in Melf's AA at 2nd level and refluff 3rd+ spells to mix in acid damage...but poison/cloud/fumes kind of spells, not bolts/balls/bursts kind of spells. Spells that can give you acidic mists, acidic liquids, etc...

I'd also have the character start research on an adapted Web spell that has an acidic coating on the webbing to damage creatures within it for...I dunno 3 rounds or so before the web dissolves away. [I've had some drow villains in my world have this kind of thing...very nasty, indeed. bwa. ha. ha.]

Ultimately, of course, it's up to you and your DM how you want things to work. But that's how I'd do it.

 

[Sunseeker]

Fire spells deal the most damage due to the assumption that fire is right after necrotic and poison as most resist.
Acid is only of the least resisted types on the same level and lightning.


Redo Fire spells as Acid= Overpowered
Redo Lightning spells as Acid= No problem

Witch Bolt becomes Caustic Link
Lightning Bolt becomes Acid Stream
Chain Lightning becomes Chain Acid

Contextual based on setting and DM style. Also: assuming feats are allowed, single-element themed casters can take the Elemental Adept which will allow them to bypass resistance anyway.

 

[Larrin]

The whole meta-narritive that leads to "fire is more often resisted, so fire spells need to be noticeably more [fill in the blank] than other types of spells" never sits right with me. especially since it seems to amount to "fire gets more, others get less" far more often then fire is remotely likely to be resisted.

At least in cantrip land, sure fire gets damage, but ice gets a slow, and acid gets two targets, and lightning has it own thing, etc. But once the leveled spell get going it really seems like there are fire spells galore that everyone wants, and all the other types are 'less' in most ways (less of them, less useful in combat, less interesting). If the best reason that there is a 8d6 AOE fireball but not an 8d6 AOE acid ball is because you are more likely to face a red dragon than a black dragon, I say "Bleh. That's not a good reason, we should probably fix that too".

I think there may be good reasons NOT to have an 8d6 AOE acid ball, but "because acid is resisted less often than fire" isn't on that list.

Honestly, I think the real reason there are more firespells and that those spell do more damage, etc, is because people really like fire spells, and they demand there be lots of fire spells that do lots of damage and if the there aren't enough firespells or they don't do enough damage people become sad. If there were only three fire-spells a sorcerer could take or if fireball was as "bad" as acid arrow, everyone would notice and no one would be happy, but when there are only three acid spell a sorcerer can take, only three people notice and only one of them cares enough to say anything about it.

So yeah, if you reskin an acidball and fight a pack of fire elementals, you'll be showing up the guy with regular fireball, and he'll never get to experience the satisfaction of fighting a pack of acid-elementals and showing you up. You'll have that advantage. But its a small advantage, and if that's only reason against allowing energy-shifted spells, its not enough of a reason that you should let it stop you.

 

[MindxKiller]

Contextual based on setting and DM style. Also: assuming feats are allowed, single-element themed casters can take the Elemental Adept which will allow them to bypass resistance anyway.

If we assume Elemental Adept is on the playing field I think it may shift even more in favor of not being overpowered to swap the element. there are 15 acid immune creatures and 40 fire immune, so 25 things more that are immune, but there are also 9 things vulnerable to fire and acid has 0 vulnerable, so if we use vulnerable to subtract from the immune number, its down to 16 things in a monster manual of 430. Is the presence of those 16 things REALLY that overpowered?

 

[Minigiant]

I wouldn't mind that as an alternative, though I would have to mention that lightning is almost identical to fire in number of creatures resistant, though only 1/4th the number of immunities, and necrotic is even less resisted/immune than acid...

It really comes to the 4 main common groups which resistances and immunities

Usually, it's...

Demons: cold, fire, lightning, poison (immune)
Devils: cold, fire (immune), poison (immune)
Dragons: acid (1), cold (2/ 1 vulnerablity), fire (4/ 3 vulnerablity), lightning (2) poison (1)
Undead: varies but usually necrotic and poison (immune)

So it really depends on the DMs use of monster theme.

Contextual based on setting and DM style. Also: assuming feats are allowed, single-element themed casters can take the Elemental Adept which will allow them to bypass resistance anyway.

Which makes it worse as WOTC places a damage bonus on fire due to their love of evil outsiders, elementals, and undead for mid-levels.

 

[Sunseeker]

Which makes it worse as WOTC places a damage bonus on fire due to their love of evil outsiders, elementals, and undead for mid-levels.

Sure, fire is very stereotypical "magic". Which makes its prevalence understandable, as well as its immunity. It's not perfect, but it's one reason I custom-build monsters more than I grab stats from the book.

 

[Krakenspire]

You can do it with the spells listed for sorcerer. Quite frankly most sorcerer spells you will be taking don't have anything to do with acid damage at all, Sleep, Magic Missile, Shield, Haste, Invisibility, Counterspell, Wish, etc... once you realize this then all of a sudden the acid damage is not to bad. Take the acid damage for flavour and don't be defined by every spell having to be acid. If you are really wedded to the black dragon thing, black dragons are also all about corruption, darkness and sneakiness.

Cantrip: Acid Splash
1st: Chromatic Orb -its not a bad spell for straight damage and despite what people think the 50gp gem is not hard to get. Just add it as a necklace or ring and away you go.
2nd: Melf's Acid Arrow - should not be on the list because of balance issues with metamagic, however if you really want it then ask the DM

My personal favourite spell of all time (since it first appeared here) from the free EE Players Companion :

so that covers off your AOE spell and its a pretty good one IMHO.

Black dragon themed spells are: Control Water, Fog Cloud, Dancing Lights, Ray of Sickness, Darkness, Misty Step, Stinking Cloud, Water Walking, Water Breathing, Blight, Cloudkill, Insect Plague, Wall of Water, Watery Sphere, Al-Dizims horrid wilting.

Really you don't need any more than that, as the rest of your spell selection is going to have nothing to do with elemental damage anyway (even if you did choose fire with more options).