Changing the Self-Deleting Spell Book

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't like that spell books in 4e delete powers written within themselves as soon as their owners learn new higher level powers. It's just...well, really stupid to be honest. So I'm thinking of removing the self-deletion property of spell books, or simply reserving spell books for rituals. Obviously this could be a huge boost to the wizard class, so I'd probably give all classes similar abilities to retain lower level powers.

Opinions?
TS

 

[Falling Icicle]

I don't like that spell books in 4e delete powers written within themselves as soon as their owners learn new higher level powers. It's just...well, really stupid to be honest.

I totally agree.

So I'm thinking of removing the self-deletion property of spell books, or simply reserving spell books for rituals. Obviously this could be a huge boost to the wizard class, so I'd probably give all classes similar abilities to retain lower level powers.

I don't think it would give a huge boost to the Wizard class. By the time you replace low level spells, their usefulness is greatly diminished. Eventually, even your at-will spells will be a superior option. Sure, there's the occasional exception like Sleep, but most spells become obsolete. Letting the Wizard keep them in his spellbook wouldn't hurt a thing, IMO. Just don't let him cast more total daily spells than anyone else.

You might want to check out this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=236293

 

[erik_the_guy]

The general idea is that the players aren't replacing spells, they are upgrading them. For example, replacing fireball with a more powerful fire spell such as meteor storm.
I can't tell you if my specific example is correct, and I know there will be exceptions in which the player replaces a fire spell with an ice one or some similar thing, but the main reason to reduce the number of dailies and encounter powers is for easier bookkeeping.
I wouldn't have the player keep old dailies or encounter powers when they could replace them, because they are too weak. I wouldn't let them have more dailies or encounters than normally allowed, because this is messy and arguable imbalanced.
If the players want to keep a spell (such as sleep) rather than replacing it, offer to replace it with a more powerful version of itself. If they refuse to replace sleep with a higher level daily spell, write up a version of sleep with a larger radius, or more powerful effect, and let them use that.

I'm not happy at all with wizards this edition. In previous editions they were usually the class with the most options, they had pages of special abilities that came in handy for a variety of situations. Now they have only as many powers as other characters, mostly AoE spells that damage grouped enemies, and a few overpriced rituals. The only fix I can think of for this problem is an entire class rewrite.

 

[inati]

So how would you prevent the abusing of retaining spells when the players start swapping powers every level just to gather more and more spells/powers just for the heck of it?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't think it would give a huge boost to the Wizard class. By the time you replace low level spells, their usefulness is greatly diminished. Eventually, even your at-will spells will be a superior option. Sure, there's the occasional exception like Sleep, but most spells become obsolete. Letting the Wizard keep them in his spellbook wouldn't hurt a thing, IMO. Just don't let him cast more total daily spells than anyone else.

That's the idea.

The general idea is that the players aren't replacing spells, they are upgrading them. For example, replacing fireball with a more powerful fire spell such as meteor storm.

While this might be true in theory, it still leaves the question "if I have a book of spells, why can't I add spells to it given the right circumstances?" There are other solutions, as you say, but I'm looking for a quick universal fix.

So how would you prevent the abusing of retaining spells when the players start swapping powers every level just to gather more and more spells/powers just for the heck of it?

That's a tough one; the only solution I can think of is to disallow power/spell retraining. I really don't like to do that because I like retraining, but that's the only real solution I can think of.

TS

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think you could do away with the self-deleting aspect of spell books if you also get rid of the auto-learning of new powers on leveling up. This would return the aspect of Wizards searching for new spells and add enemy spellbooks back into the 'rewards' category.

This way wizards could gather many spells, some of which they would not be able to even cast yet.

The wizard could still retrain 'powers'..but can only learn 'spells' that are in his/her spellbook.

 

[erik_the_guy]

I think you could do away with the self-deleting aspect of spell books if you also get rid of the auto-learning of new powers on leveling up. This would return the aspect of Wizards searching for new spells and add enemy spellbooks back into the 'rewards' category.

This way wizards could gather many spells, some of which they would not be able to even cast yet.

The wizard could still retrain 'powers'..but can only learn 'spells' that are in his/her spellbook.

Good idea, balance out giving the wizards more powers than anyone else by forcing them to pick up their spells on their own. Maybe make it easier to learn spells at level up though, so they don't get completely screwed over.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

From the new Tome of House Rules:

Character Option: Power Retention
This house rule allows characters to retain low level powers as they advance, and to learn a greater number of high level powers. Characters who use this option have different rules than other characters:
---The character cannot retrain powers.
---Once the character knows any given power, that power becomes a permanent part of the character’s repertoire. (Characters do not lose lower level powers when they gain new powers at level-up.)
---The character has only a limited number of power slots, according to the table on page 29 of the Player’s Handbook. To use a power, the character must prepare a power by using up one of his or her power slots. (Powers granted from race, class features, feats and magical items can be used in addition to these base power slots, as normal.) The character cannot prepare the same power twice. The character can change his or her prepared powers after an extended rest.
---The character can learn new powers of his or her level or lower by either finding a manual which describes that power or by spending money to research that power. Normally a character can only learn powers of his or her class, but if the character has a multiclass feat he or she might be able to learn other powers. If the character has Novice Power, the character can learn encounter powers of the appropriate class; if the character has Acolyte Power, the character can learn utility powers of the appropriate class; if the character has Adept Power, the character can learn daily powers of the appropriate class. By studying a manual which describes a suitable power over an extended rest, the character adds that power to his or her repertoire. By spending money to research a suitable power equal to a magical item of equivalent level, the character adds that power to his or her repertoire. To research a new power, the character must spend a week in a community with To research a new power, the character must spend a week in a community with NPCs and tools of the character’s class.
---If the character is a wizard, he or she does not need a spell book to hold daily and utility spells.

I'm going to offer this option to all the players of my new 4e game. We'll see how many takers I get.
TS

 

[logopolis]

I think you could do away with the self-deleting aspect of spell books if you also get rid of the auto-learning of new powers on leveling up. This would return the aspect of Wizards searching for new spells and add enemy spellbooks back into the 'rewards' category.

This way wizards could gather many spells, some of which they would not be able to even cast yet.

The wizard could still retrain 'powers'..but can only learn 'spells' that are in his/her spellbook.

Yeah, that's a good idea. That would keep some of the 3E spellbook flavour, which I liked. There's no reason to disallow retraining of at-will and encounter powers, since they don't use the spellbook IIRC.

I think it would be fair to allow the wizard to learn one (instead of two) daily and utility power (spell) at the usual levels.

 

[DreamChaser]

I'm not happy at all with wizards this edition. In previous editions they were usually the class with the most options, they had pages of special abilities that came in handy for a variety of situations. Now they have only as many powers as other characters, mostly AoE spells that damage grouped enemies, and a few overpriced rituals. The only fix I can think of for this problem is an entire class rewrite.

So how did / would you then address the huge power differential between wizards and fighters? The wizard is less powerful now because (especially at mid-to-high levels) it was too powerful before.

so I'd probably give all classes similar abilities to retain lower level powers.

I'm confused. All classes already have the ability to retrain lower level powers. The benefit wizards possess that the other classes do not is the "double option / one per day" for their daily and utility spells.

All removing the spellbook would do is remove the ability to "steal" a wizard's ability to change their utility / daily spell selection, which is not a huge deal IMHO. Make the choice something that they change while they sleep (it alters while they dream or "trance") and so it can only be adjusted during an extended rest.

That said, I have no problem with the self editing spellbook any more than I have a problem with rogues using a sling to send a blinding barrage of bullets at half a dozen enemies. Wizards do / are / embody magic. Their books are special. Heck, my computer is self editing and I'm not even a wizard.

DC