• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Chaotic Neutral Alignment should be against the rules!!!

Psion

Adventurer
Humanophile said:
I hate to open this can of worms here, but...

Play an alignment-free game. Require a sentence to a paragraph of writeup for the character's general personality, but for the most part, ignore all of that and let the players role-play how they want to.

You can do that anyway and keep alignment -- alignment is a determination, not a straightjacket (and this has been said innumerable time in the books and elsewhere.) Problem is that in the typical D&D fantasy setting, morality is a tangible force. Alignment is less a role-playing handle than it is a mechanics handle for alignment related effects.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Celebrim

Legend
I find it interesting that people who play Chaotic Nuetral do not believe that they are by choosing that alignment saying, in effect, that they intend to protray a character who has a radical and extreme moral and ethical system. Because, they are.

Consider the following. If a player states that the philosophy of his character is NG, NE, or LN, every DM immediately understands that the character is intended to be uncompromisingly good, evil, or lawful, respectively, and understands that when the character acts otherwise the player first needs to be warned, then perhaps counciled, and if no compromise can be reached the characters alignment needs to shift appropriately. Alignment change is intended to be a penalty for poor roleplay, especially when it occurs for no dramatically important reason (redemption, transformation, transgression, etc.).

If a character is supposed to be CN, then he is going to have a very hard time getting along with a group and not suffering an alignment change. If I had a player in my campaign, and the player chose Chaotic Neutral for no better reason than he thought it would allow him to avoid consistant and well reasoned role play, then I would be quick to point out to him that the following actions were violations of his stated alignment whenever they occurred:

1) Agreeing to allow someone else to lead, or consistantly following someone elses suggestions (even if they were reasonable or that other person clearly was the best person to lead). There is no such thing as a chaotic neutral follower. Every CN believes that it is his right to rule the world.

2) Not acting in his own best immediate self-interest. In other words, not attempting to cheat, steal, lie, convive, or gather more than his share of the glory, wealth, and prestige of the group. Would you allow the Paladin to lie, cheat, and steal without attoning? Then why do you allow a CN to get away with not doing it?

3) Not acting contrarily, randomly, and capraciously. That is to say, not occasionally doing something merely because someone forbid him to do it implicitly or explicitly. You wouldn't allow a lawful character to be disobiedient to those in authority, why would you allow a chaotic character to be obedient and subservient?

4) Not acting illogically, spontaneously, and with very little reflection. That is to say, not occasionally doing something that had very little or no chance of success (and was probably dangerous) merely to make things interesting or see what would happen. (Or merely because he believed that life was so unpredicatable that no well thought out plan had any more chance of success than a random and seemingly unreasonable one.) You wouldn't allow a lawful character to be always brash and unthinking would you?

5) Being loyal. Not betraying his friends when there was a clear benefit to doing so. You wouldn't allow a lawful neutral to betray someone without taking some alignment penalty would you?

6) Working for or taking actions that assist a lawful aligned group, person or agency even when such actions are beneficial to himself. If working for a lawful agency, the character must ultimately betray the agency or violate alignment. You wouldn't allow a good character to work for diabolists because they allowed him to further some good cause?

Although I would accept some deviation on one point or another because people are different and can hold thier beliefs to greater or lesser degrees, consistant deviation on all or many points is a sign that something is wrong.

A chaotic neutral character must set his own interests first, or he is not chaotic neutral. Chaotic neutrals do not generally form long friendships. If your player argues that his character forms a lasting friendship with someone else because it is in his best interest to do so, point out that the principal he has just stated is THE ESSENCE OF THE LAWFUL PHILOSOPHY. It is the lawful philosophy that says the most success occurs to the most people when everyone works together. To state that your character believes that his best interest is served by being loyal to someone else is to state that your character is not chaotic neutral.

Would you accept the arguement from a nuetral good character that the ends justify the means? That he is only committing this evil act in order to further a good? I wouldn't. To claim that good had to be evil in order to accomplish good is to deny the essence of belief in goodness. The same principal holds true for True Chaotics and any other alignment group.

(As an aside, I have long argued that most people don't have a consistant set of ethical principals, and that one of the reason you see alot of people arguing that alignment is bogus is that in fact they, the players, are neutrals and don't believe in real life that ethics and morals really exist.)

A well played party of CN's should be bickering, lawless, back stabbing anarchs, each always trying to put themselves to the front, and probably should not stay cohesive for long as each is uncomfortable except as a lone wolf. It could be fun, but it's probably not what the players of CN's you describe want, which is perfect freedom of action without penalty. CN want perfect freedom of action (True), but they accept nothing less.

Most characters have nuetral alignments in my experience. They don't really strongly hold to any particular principal and will conform thier actions to make the most of the surrounding situation - lying and murdering when necessary, and acting selflessly and heroicly when necessary. Whether this is the result of the underlying philosophy of the player coming through, or the result of treating action in an RPG like moves in a game of chess (which need no justification other than logic and the pursuit of success), I don't know. However I do know, that if you want to include philosophical elements in your campaign, anytime a player trends excessively in a moral direction other than thier stated one, you as a DM need to step in and provide some guidance either as the DM or as the player's concience, deity, or whatever.

(Another aside - as a person who believes his own philosophy is best described in game terms as NG, I tend to feel that the reason that we have a hard time distinguishing between evil actions and chaotic actions is that 'chaos' and 'law' are abitrary, secondary, distinctions. A similar falacy can be seen when you ask the average person which alignment is 'the most good'. Most players respond 'LG'. In fact, the answer is NG, or 'Pure Good'. LG's, like paladins, are tainted by lawfulness and more prone to nongood actions (in the service of law) than NG's. Most people falsely associate goodness with orderliness, obedience, and so forth, when those are just arbitary and secondary distinctions. Running any of the moral neutral alignments is therefore very tricky, since IMO such categories don't really exist. An ammoral person is IMO no different than an immoral person. Just because he doesn't believe in 'good' and 'evil' doesn't mean that such concepts don't exist. As a long time player of a Chaotic Neutral, I found it hard to distinguish my characters actions from Evil except by secretly in my head giving the character a set of rules to follow. A secret code of honor, as it where. For instance, balancing his freedom to steal (a chaotic evil action), I decided that he felt that everyone had the right to certain basic freedoms (a chaotic good principal), and would not seek vengence on someone for doing something that he would have done himself (for instance stealing some of his own minor possessions), and would not enslave someone else (no charm person, liberate slaves at a whim, etc.). However, at its heart this orderly approach is a betrayal of chaotic. Honor is generally deemed a lawful principal. CN's don't give themselves guiding principals. I tried to get around this by telling myself that he (unlike his player) was acting out of emotion and not logic, but it was never perfectly satisfying.)
 
Last edited:


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Disagreeing

I'd have to respectfully disagree with a few points, but hey. :)

Chaotic Neutral is not a cop-out alignment, and should not be thought of "I can do anything." A Chaotic alignment means individualistic, rebellious, a love of freedom and a glorious reveling in that which makes things different.

Chaotic Neutral can be a lot of things, but it should never violate those tenets. Chaotic Good tends to support them because that is the ideal, where no one would live under the command of those who may pervert and corrupt order to their own ends. Chaotic Evil tends to support them because it is in that environment that they may gain the most power for themselves, and cause the most pain to others -- without The Man keeping them down.

I say the PC should still be able to choose CN. There's nothing wrong with playing this type of character: an embracer of freedom both for the good (hey! no oppression!) and the bad (hey! He can steal from you unless you can stop it!). A Chaotic Neutral person should probably support the actions of a Chaotic Evil person (or at least their freedom to do that), and those of a Chaotic Good person (who cares what we're opposing? All law sucks!).

CN people can work in a group, as long as they remain distinct individuals and he advances his own goals along with the groups -- don't expect CN Billy to go out of his way to help Ted the Dead Dwarf get revived. It's not his problem. He had freedom to get killed, and there's no reason we should infringe on his freedom to die. CN doesn't nessecarily mean self-serving (that's evil), but it does mean that individuals are more important than masses. He is more important than the group, and the blacksmith is more important than the town and each flower is more important than the entire bed.

IMHO, the problem of characters doing whatever they want is completely seperate -- and not even really a problem. I think it's kind of lazy of a DM to say "You have to do this." They're within their rights, and I wouldn't say that they shouldn't be able to say that, but I don't really think it's in good taste. If they have fun killing blacksmiths who jilt them, why stop them? Let them know they'll be evil, and adapt to it. He kills a blacksmith? Cool, you've got another adventure when he's tracked down by guards and put in the slammer. If he escapes (which he should be able to do, unless you're a Rat Bastard DM (tm)), he's got a lot of problems. Killing innocents usually means that The Heroes are after you...

So they're not heroes. Don't make them be. Play the villains. That way, as a DM, you can be the Heroes hunting them down and wanting to end their Reign of Terror. Or play the Disintrested Ones. As a DM, your challenge is then to give them a REASON to save the world from evil.

Of course, running evil campaigns has a whole new set of problems inherent in it...you can't depend on PC heroics, or even that they'll care about the ravaging goblin band threatening the city (a Neutral party might not care about that either...). You have to make the campaign a deeply personal one, with tendrils that reach into the faux-lives of the fictional characters and draw them out into the world. You can't say "Darkness is spreading: stop it!"

So, in summary: CN should still be allowed, because it can be played right. And parties who do whatever they want need a change in the adventure outline, not a railroad that makes them do things your way.

Of course, the DM is still within his rights to say: "Sorry bub, not in this campaign," if he wants to make it easy on him, or has a specific idea in mind for the campaign that certain ideas wouldn't be compatible with. But I would say "roll with it." Just because they're of Ambiguous Morality doesn't mean they can't go on quests, fight monsters, earn treasure, and get adventurous. It just means that they can't be heroes.

Eh. Heroism is overrated. :D
 
Last edited:

LostSoul

Adventurer
Celebrim said:
If I had a player in my campaign, and the player chose Chaotic Neutral for no better reason than he thought it would allow him to avoid consistant and well reasoned role play, then I would be quick to point out to him that the following actions were violations of his stated alignment whenever they occurred:

[SNIP]

If your player argues that his character forms a lasting friendship with someone else because it is in his best interest to do so, point out that the principal he has just stated is THE ESSENCE OF THE LAWFUL PHILOSOPHY.

Interesting take. Not mine, however.

I'd hate to play a Chaotic Good character in your campaign.
 
Last edited:

Psion

Adventurer
Celebrim said:
1) Agreeing to allow someone else to lead, or consistantly following someone elses suggestions

Okay so far.

(even if they were reasonable or that other person clearly was the best person to lead). There is no such thing as a chaotic neutral follower. Every CN believes that it is his right to rule the world.

No, and further, it is viewpoints like this that make CN alignments so troublesome. That is putting way to fine a point on it. That may fit a specific CN character, but not all. The essence of a CN character is a free spirit, a character that does not respect social convention.

A CN character may well follow a person that they personally respected, or that they feared. But if that person was replaced by another person due to seniority, rank, or such not, the CN character would not feel compelled to follow.

2) Not acting in his own best immediate self-interest. In other words, not attempting to cheat, steal, lie, convive, or gather more than his share of the glory, wealth, and prestige of the group.

That sounds dangerously close to evil and not on the law/chaos axis. A CN character would lie if they felt justified, because they don't feel compelled to follow the social convention of honesty. But if they are exceedingly wanton and greedy, they are CE not CN.


For the next one, two birds with one stone:

3) Not acting contrarily, randomly, and capraciously. That is to say, not occasionally doing something merely because someone forbid him to do it implicitly or explicitly. You wouldn't allow a lawful character to be disobiedient to those in authority, why would you allow a chaotic character to be obedient and subservient?

4) Not acting illogically, spontaneously, and with very little reflection. That is to say, not occasionally doing something that had very little or no chance of success (and was probably dangerous) merely to make things interesting or see what would happen. (Or merely because he believed that life was so unpredicatable that no well thought out plan had any more chance of success than a random and seemingly unreasonable one.) You wouldn't allow a lawful character to be always brash and unthinking would you?

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and this is another myth that makes CN characters troublesome. Incidentally, the original definition of CN in the 3e playtest material said something to this effect and it was mercifully axed before reaching the printed version. The above character may be CN, but it is in no way a necessary condition for a CN character. By acting randomly, the character necessarily defies social order. But you don't have to act randomly to defy social order. And individualist or free spirit can have perfectly self-consistent.

6) Working for or taking actions that assist a lawful aligned group, person or agency even when such actions are beneficial to himself. If working for a lawful agency, the character must ultimately betray the agency or violate alignment.

No. First off, saying a chaotic character "must" do something is somewhat contradictory. A CN character may be perfectly content to avoid the agency when he doesn't have a compelling reason to do so. You seem to be describing a method vice an attitude. Chaotic =/= stupid. A wise CN character knows better than to piss in the cheerios of a powerful agency. Chaotic means not respecting social order; that does not mean it is compulsory to betray it when they aren't bothering you.

If your player argues that his character forms a lasting friendship with someone else because it is in his best interest to do so, point out that the principal he has just stated is THE ESSENCE OF THE LAWFUL PHILOSOPHY. It is the lawful philosophy that says the most success occurs to the most people when everyone works together.

True about the last sentence. Everything before it is off. A character could form a friendship because he respects or trusts a certain character; that does not mean he feels it important to be part of a community. Again, you seem to be describing a specific subset of CN behavior, not CN philosophy as a whole.
 

Xaven

First Post
Kamikaze Midget, if I were in a group that contained a CN character the way you describe it, I would try to get the rest of the group to go against him. It is as simple as that. I am one that doesn't much care for CN, and when I DM and on the rare occasions where I alow people to be evil (or CN), when the other players want to kill him (and it alwas happens) I don't stand in their way. Your thinking supports this. "If he isn't strong enough to stop it from happening, so be it". I never make my players strictly adhere to their alignments, and I can count the number of times alignment has been changed on one hand, but it only ever becomes an issue when a player of dubious views starts to tear the group apart. When that happens, the predominantly good group kicks him/her out, by which I then make them make a new character, as I wouldn't want to solo a character that couldn't get along with others (and I agree with the group).
 

Ulrick

First Post
Humanophile said:
I hate to open this can of worms here, but...

*Edit*
I find it interesting how many people like to hide behind alignments, saying things like "I'm C-N, it's in-character for him to act like an a-hole", but without that to fall back on, they're far less likely to bluntly state "My character's an a-hole, it's in character for me to play him like an a-hole".

Agreed. I've encountered a couple players who simply played CN just because they thought it allowed them to do evil acts on occasion. One guy even said, "Yeah, CN is a great alignment because its allows you torture people."

But I've also had players roleplay CN very well. One guy even flipped a coin for what action he'd take if he wasn't sure what to do.

Ulrick
 

Buttercup

Princess of Florin
It lets you torture people? Maybe. But if you do, the good characters in your party should refuse to have anything further to do with you. Gee, they might even turn you in to the authorities.

edit: I hit the post button too soon.

I don't think I've ever seen CN roleplayed well. I've always allowed it in my games, but no one has ever played it, except for one guy who never showed up anyway. In the games I've played in, I've had fellow players take that alignment, but they were, as the original poster said, just using it to act like an a-hole.

The player who flipped a coin was onto something, I think.
 
Last edited:

ogre

First Post
My take on the situation:
A CG would have confronted the guy and had some words with him and probably used verbal intimidation to get the blacksmith to fix it.
A CN would have confronted him and then promptly beat the crap outa him. Using subdual damage of course.
The CE would have just killed him and felt better about it.

Now, I wouldn't go changing the PCs alignment for a single act that appears to be only 'one step' away from his recorded alignment. 2 steps, yeah, but not one. Let the alignment be a sum of many occurances, unless it's drastic.




That's the whole truth and nothing but the truth
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top