Characters

[Sepulchrave II]

I thought that a thread dedicated to various characters might be nice. Matt, Jake et. al can go here in their umpteen incarnations. I figured it would be good to throw in a few other possible benchmark characters, as well.

Epic characters take so damn long to detail. I'm going to start with some non-spellcasters; it was pointed out that such characters can afford to invest in templates and monstrous races far more than spellcasting types, who are constrained by CL considerations. I'm assuming the following:

1) Elite array
2) Level cubed x 100 wealth
3) Revised item costs, proportional surcharge.
4) Continued nonepic BAB progression, 4 iterative attacks max.
5) Core only

There is a fair deal of min-maxing; I'm trying to test the limits of the system. Hopefully I can get some playtesting in this weekend. If you feel the urge to make any characters, please do - I know it's a long and tedious process, but I think we'll need a lot of them in order to get a perspective on how things progress.

First is Irix, an Erinyes. Erinyes make a solid, versatile base. He's a finesse fighter/archer.

*

IRIX (ECL 47?)

Male Erinyes Fighter 24; Medium Outsider (Baatezu, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful); HD 9d8+144 plus 24d10+384; hp 705; Init +31; Spd. 60 ft., fly 50 ft. (good); AC 83 (+23 Dex, +8 natural, +14 armor, +16 shield, +12 deflection), touch 43, flat-footed 54; Base Atk +33; Grp +46; Atk +75 melee (1d6+35 +1d6 fire/15-20, +14 adamantine flaming speed rapier) or +62 ranged (1d8+19/19-20x3, +5 distance seeking speed composite longbow and +1 wounding arrow); SA Spell-like abilities, summon baatezu; SQ DR 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., evasion, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing; Fort +49 Ref +52 Will +36; Str 37 Dex 56 Con 43 Int 23 Wis 25 Cha 20

Skills: Balance +63, Climb +59, Concentration +52, Diplomacy +45, Intimidate +41, Jump +79, Listen +43, Sense Motive +43, Spot +43, Tumble +67

Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Epic Prowess, Epic Weapon Focus (Rapier), Epic Weapon Specialization (Rapier), Mobility, Epic Will, Far Shot, Greater Weapon Focus (rapier), Greater Weapon Specialization (rapier), Improved Critical (rapier), Improved Critical (longbow), Improved Manyshot, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, Superior Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Specialization (rapier), Whirlwind Attack.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – greater teleport, charm monster (DC 20), mirror image (DC 17), unholy blight (DC 19). Caster level 12th. The DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day Irix can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell.

True Seeing (Su): Irix continuously uses true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th).


Equipment (10,382,300)

Gloves of Dexterity +20 (1,700,000)
+14 adamantine flaming speed rapier (2,335,820)
+15 mithral heavy fortification light shield (1,701,009)
Ring of protection +12 (891,200)
Cloak of resistance +14 (648,800)
Bracers of armor +14 (648,800)
Amulet of health +14 (648,800)
Belt of giant strength +14 (648,800)
+5 distance seeking speed composite longbow (+14 Str Bonus) (202,000)
50 x +1 wounding arrows (18,350)
Boots of swiftness (350,000)
+5 Tomes (Dex, Con, Int, Wis) (550,000)
Headband of intellect +6 (36,000)

Funds remaining: 8,121gp.

*

Skill breakdown (360 pts):

Balance: 18 (cc:36 pts) +23 (Dex) +2 (Synergy) +20 (boots) = +63
Climb: 36 +13 (Str) +20 (Boots) = +69
Concentration: 36 +16 (Con) = +52
Diplomacy: 36 +5 (Cha) +4 (Synergy) = +45
Intimidate: 36 +5 (Cha) = +41
Jump: 36 +13 (Str) +2 (Synergy) +20 (Boots) +8 (Speed)= +79
Listen: 36 +7 (Wis) = +43
Sense Motive: 36 +7 (Wis) = +43
Spot: 36 +7 (Wis) = +43
Tumble: 18 (cc:36 pts) +23 (Dex) +6 (Synergy) +20 (Boots) = +67


Edit: Tweaked to bring gear in line with ECL47 character.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The erinyes is quite a catch! The increased Strength bonus alone almost makes up for the LA, the Constitution bonus means that the creature is soon ahead in hit points, +8 natural armor is nothing to sneeze at- flight, immunities, resistances, teleportation and telepathy are all worth noting, and true seeing is just superb. I'm wondering if the LA might be too low.

v5 of UK's IH appendix lists numbers that we can interpret as giving a creature's ECL. With three caveats; First, when he wrote v5 he thought that a feat was worth 1/5 of an ECL- he now thinks it is more like 1/6. And so all the numbers have to be multiplied by 5/6. Furthermore, the ECL is for the creature as they are in the book- with no equipment to speak of. Giving them PC-level equipment means you have to multiply the numbers by 3/2. Finally, many monsters have had their CR reduced because of something UK calls "the Golden Rule"

Class Levels or Hit Dice should always comprise at least 50% of the
creatures total CR. When they don’t, halve all excess CR beyond double
the creatures CR modifier for Character Levels and Hit Dice.

Obviously, when we add massive class levels to a base creature, the golden rule doesn't apply. Combining these considerations, the appropriate base ECL for a monster with lots of class levels and PC treasure will be determined by multiplying the first value listed in the table by 1.25. For an erinyes it will be 18.72125 x 1.25 = 23 (rounding down). Using the MM's LA, you'd think an erinyes should have an ECL of 16; this underestimates its power by 7 full levels. Which means the character you describe here is more like a 45th level character than a 40th level character. (He doesn't have the equipment for a 47th level character, so I'll drop him a few levels).

A half-fiend pixie has an ECL of 18 + class levels, however, provided that at least 20 HD are added. A lot more than the +8 that you get using the MM's numbers (+4 for being a pixie, +4 for being a half-fiend).

This method doesn't help much if the base creature is a fire giant; it indicates a fire giant should be ECL 20, versus ECL 19 according to the MM. No big difference.

But I'm thinking that the reason why many monstrous creatures appear unbalanced is not so much because the buff items are undercosted, but because some of the LAs are undercosted. Plus DevCrit might be broken.

Which is not to say that we are pricing equipment too cheaply- that may very well be the case. But more evidence is needed.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Giving them PC-level equipment means you have to multiply the numbers by 3/2.

Given that the total power of PC-level equipment is one of the things under scrutiny, here, I'm going to have to take the x3/2 with a pinch of salt (useful, when dealing with devils anyway, I'm told).

LA/ECL of creatures in the MM is one of those things I'd like to keep, btw. No, it's not perfect by any means, and doesn't represent the increasing power of some combinations as characters gain levels. But it's what people are going to use.

They're probably going to use the ELH wealth guidelines and epic item prices as well, of course, which makes me wonder why I'm spending so much time thinking about it...

 

[Cheiromancer]

If a problematic combo comes up, it would be nice to know if the problem is from our side (the Epic Magic rules) or from a part of the rules that are known to have balance issues. I think people generally know that LAs are set based on the assumption of non-epic play, and that a few of them could be big trouble in epic play.

I think we should warn people that the LAs might be too low for epic play, especially for many outsiders and giants. I think you've mostly identified them: the erinyes, fire giants and pixies, and the half-dragon, half-celestial and half-fiend templates. The astral deva, bralani eladrin, vrock, djinni, frost giant and stone giant are also potential candidates for the list. A chain devil might be worthwhile given its regeneration. And folks not bound by the OGL might be able to exploit the gith (with their scaling SR) and the blue slaad. I don't know if we can even name those non-OGL monsters, though.

Fixing these problems would take us way beyond our already ambitious task. I say we warn people and leave it at that. Maybe suggest a higher LA (another +7 for an erinyes, say) or some other patch to give guidance to DMs. Game balance is ultimately their responsibility; we just want to make their lives easier. It they choose to allow a player to make a 50th level half-dragon fire giant barbarian using the MM LAs, the least we can do is warn them that the PC will mow through opponents like nobody's business.

Re: abilities with Save DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + ability modifier

If someone builds a character that exploits this sort of ability (is there a generic name for attacks whose save DC follow this pattern?) what can you do, short of severely curbing ability buffs? In this case of the fire giant barbarian, even that is insufficient. And using UK's numbers doesn't help either.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Okay. A nontemplated character (yay!) which follows your preference for item costing. Nora, a Dwarven Defender.

15 defensive stances per day means that, effectively, this will be Nora's normal combat status.

Nora can take a lot of punishment. Maybe the half-dragon fire giant barbarian isn't such a problem, after all - in a defensive stance her AC rises to 79 against giants. Her DevCrit is modest - but still worth having as a feat, I'd say. Her Will save is pretty low, though – she needs to make sure Matt casts a mind blank on her. Notable craziness is in bold face.


NORA
Female Dwarf Fighter 10 / Dwarven Defender 30; Medium humanoid (dwarf); HD 10d10+170 plus 30d12+510 plus 3; hp 937; Spd 30ft.; Init +15; AC 69 (+26 armor, +15 shield, +3 Dex, +1 insight, +10 deflection, +4 dodge), touch 28, flat-footed 62; Base Atk +40; Grp +50; Atk +59 melee (1d10+19/19-20x3, +7 adamantine speed waraxe); SQ Defensive stance 15/day, DR 33/-, dwarf qualities, fast healing 3, improved uncanny dodge, mobile defense, trap sense +7; Fort +53 Ref +35 Will +32; Str 31 Dex 24 Con 45 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 6

Skills: whatever.

Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Waraxe), Improved Critical (Waraxe), Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Waraxe), Weapon Specialization (Waraxe)

Epic Feats: Bulwark of Defense, Devastating Critical (Waraxe) (DC 40), Dire Charge, Damage Reduction (x4), Fast Healing, Overwhelming Critical (Waraxe), Spellcasting Harrier, Superior Initiative

Defensive Stance: The following changes are in effect when Nora enters a defensive stance: Str 35, Con 51, Atk +61 melee (1d10+21/19-20x3), AC 75 (touch 34), hp 1057, Fort +56. The Save DC to resist her Devastating Critical rises to 42. Nora's defensive stance lasts for 23 rounds.

Gear
Amulet of health +18 (1,266,400)
+18 Mithral full plate armor (1,276,600)
+13 Adamantine heavy fortification heavy shield (1,271,415)
+7 Adamantine speed dwarven waraxe (603,030)
Girdle of giant strength +12 (445,600)
Ring of protection +10 (600,000)
Cloak of resistance +12 (445,600)
Tomes (+5 Str, +5 Con, +5 Dex) (412,500)
Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000)
Boots of striding and springing (5,500)
Pale dusty rose prism Ioun stone (5,000)

32.5K remains

 

[Cheiromancer]

Irix's ability scores:

      elite   racial   buffs  tomes   levels  total 
Str	13	10	14			37
Dex	15	10	20	5	6	56
Con	14	10	14	5		43
Int	8	4	6	5		23
Wis	12	8		5		25
Cha	10	10				20

I notice that the skill bonuses from the intelligence boosts (headbands and tomes) are retroactive. I suppose that's better than trying to figure out when skill points were increased- the process of building a character is enough of a problem anyway.

I'd recommend that any epic character with a Con of 25 try to take Fast Healing when convenient. When you have 705 hp you could go through an awful lot of wands of CLW healing up between encounters.

I wonder how a 47th level human archer/finesse fighter could best emulate Irix? A continuous greater teleport item would be 182,000 gp. A continuous true seeing item would be 180,000 gp (assuming a cleric makes it). Assuming they are supernatural abilities, they'd be available at about 33rd level or so (according to your method). Need immunity to fire and immunity to poison, too, and a way of flying. Most of the other stuff (armor and ability scores) will be compensated for with higher character levels; having power attack and a higher BAB is almost as good as having a high strength. I think it is doable; a LA of 14 leaves a lot of room for a human to play catch-up.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Tweaked Irix to reflect ECL 47 wealth, and smoothed out wrinkles in the skills; you might want to check - I've probably screwed up somewhere. He's pretty well optimized, now.

The difference in wealth by ECL is very noticeable; saves are far more robust with various extra boosts. Primary attack is plain mean. I'm still not convinced that this is the natural wealth level for this character, though. If you strip his gear, he should be a CR 31, right? Maybe I can buy that.

Used your item costs, btw.

After starting the stat block, I usually stat characters in this order:

1. Gear
2. Feats
3. Ability scores
4. HD/hp/AC/Speed/Init
5. Saves
6. Skills
7. Everything else

 

[Sepulchrave II]

One of the Devastating Critical builds I was playing with. If I understand the Krustese ECL method from v.5, this character is ECL 46. If not, then I'll need to recalculate gear - which is a pain. Not as bad as the fire giant.

Checking the stat block for errors is always appreciated, btw.


LUTZ (ECL 46)
Half-Fiendish Troll Barbarian 25; Large Outsider (Augmented Giant, Native); HD 6d8+114 plus 25d12+475; hp 782; Init +12; Spd 70 ft., fly 30 ft. (average); AC 65 (-1 Size, +6 Dex, +24 armor, +10 shield, +6 natural, +10 deflection), touch 25, flat-footed 65; Base Atk +29; Grp +59; Atk +71 melee (2d6+55/15-20, +16 cold iron large falchion); Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.; SA Rage, rend, smite good, spell-like abilities; SQ Darkvision 90 ft., evasion, DR 10/magic and 7/-, improved uncanny dodge, low-light vision, mighty rage, poison immunitity, regeneration 5, resistances, scent, SR 35, tireless rage, trap sense +8; Fort +52 Ref +32 Will +21; Str 62 Dex 27 Con 49 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 6

Skills: Balance +34, Climb +80, Intimidate +32, Jump +98, Listen +33, Spot +33, Tumble +48

Feats: Cleave, Devastating Critical (falchion) (DC 51), Dire Charge, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Initiative, Overwhelming Critical (falchion), Power Attack, Terrifying Rage, Weapon Focus (falchion)

Terrifying Rage: Creatures who view Lutz while he is raging must make a Will Save opposed by Lutz's Intimidate check. Creatures with 30 or fewer HD who fail are panicked, those with 31 to 62 HD are shaken.

Raging: The following changes are in effect while Lutz rages: hp 906, AC 63, Atk +75 melee (2d6+61/15-20), Str 70, Con 57, Fort +56 Will +25. The Save DC to resist his Devastating Critical increases to 55. Lutz can rage 7 times per day for up to 26 rounds. He is not fatigued afterwards.


Equipment (9,733,600 gp).

Girdle of giant strength +20 (1,700,000)
+16 cold iron large falchion (1,840,775)
+20 mithral chain shirt (1,701,100)
+8 animated heavy fortification adamantine heavy shield (778,015)
Amulet of health +16 (919,200)
Cloak of resistance +14 (648,800)
Ring of protection +10 (600,000)
Slotless mind blank device (480,000)
Boots of Swiftness (350,000)
+5 Tomes (Str, Con) (275,000)
Ring of elemental immunity (fire) (240,000)

200,710 gp remains.


Skill breakdown (206pts)

Balance: 4 +8 (Dex) +2 (Synergy) +20 (Boots) = +34
Climb: 34 +26 (Str) +20 (Boots) = +80
Intimidate: 34 –2 (Cha) = +32
Jump: 34 +26 (Str) +2 (Synergy) +20 (Boots) +16 (Speed) = +98
Listen: 34 –1 (Wis) = +33
Spot: 34 –1 (Wis) = +33
Tumble: 16 (cc: 32 pts) +4 (Synergy) +8 (Dex) +20 (Boots) = +48


I wonder whether to give Lutz a mask of fearsome visage: +30 to Intimidate checks / 90,000 gp. What do you think?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I work out a half-fiend troll to be 21 + class levels (provided total HD are 20 or more).

I wonder whether to give Lutz a mask of fearsome visage: +30 to Intimidate checks / 90,000 gp. What do you think?

I think it would be excellent idea! I savor the idea of Lutz catching a glimpse of himself while raging and becoming shaken for 4d6 rounds as a result.

Terrifying rage is not a mind-affecting attack, is it? Unless someone is specifically immune to fear effects, they'll be affected.

[edit] It is:

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Slotless mind blank device (480,000)

We could probably find a better name. And 8 (SL) x 15 (CL) x 2000 (continuous) x 1/2 (24 hours duration) x 2 (slotless) = 240,000. Which would be way too cheap; did you double it as an ad hoc measure?

Does fortification grant immunity to effects that only affect creatures subject to critical hits? DevCrit won't affect undead or constructs, and neither will Irix's wounding arrows. Can Irix and Lutz affect each other with these special attacks?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

We could probably find a better name.

Inscrutable Peridot / Peridot of Inscrutability? According to the 1e DMG, peridot wards off enchantments.

did you double it as an ad hoc measure?

Guilty as charged. Do you mind?

Can Irix and Lutz affect each other with these special attacks?

No, they just have to slug it out.