Charging with Spring Attack?

[StreamOfTheSky]

No. You can only do a partial charge when limited to a standard action. And it consumes your standard action. You could be slowed, a zombie, on a surprise round, whatever. In any case, if you make a partial charge, you won't have another move action to take afterwards. That's all I was saying.

Thsi reminds me, though. In MIC, there's Boots of the Battle Charger. Costs only like 2k and as a 2/day, you can charge as a standard action. Which means you would have your move action to take afterwards. Course, you'd better have tumble ranks to leave melee like that...

 

[Starbuck_II]

No. You can only do a partial charge when limited to a standard action. And it consumes your standard action. You could be slowed, a zombie, on a surprise round, whatever. In any case, if you make a partial charge, you won't have another move action to take afterwards. That's all I was saying.

No, Spring attack doesn't use move action up. It just lets you get a free move after moving before attack (like a Charge).

So a Partial Charge uses up standard action and you can now move (not an action) because of the feat after attacking.

 

[frankthedm]

So a Partial Charge uses up standard action and you can now move (not an action) because of the feat after attacking.

You can't do this in 3.5 because the charge is its own action.

 

[akbearfoot]

Charging explicitly takes you in a straight line from where you are up to your opponent where you immediately stop and make a melee attack. The movement must be in as straight line and you are not allowed to move past them. So even if spring attack wasn't restricted to standard action at all, you still could not benefit from it with a charge because of the rigid movement restrictions.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, Spring attack doesn't use move action up. It just lets you get a free move after moving before attack (like a Charge).

So a Partial Charge uses up standard action and you can now move (not an action) because of the feat after attacking.

There are a few things wrong with this.

1. Spring Attack does require a move action, but the wording in the PHB is incorrect. It was corrected in the Special Edition PHB - it now says "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action..." rather than "you can move..."

(Basically, the definition of a standard action changed between 3E and 3.5 - in 3E, a standard action included a move, so "the attack action" in 3E included a move but in 3.5 it does not. But the wording of the Spring Attack feat in the initial printing of the 3.5 PHB used phrasing as though the attack action still included a move.)

2. Even in the original 3.5 PHB printing, it says "When using the attack action, you..." When you charge - whether as a full round action, or as a standard action when you are restricted to a standard action - you are taking the Charge action. You are not taking the Attack action, therefore you cannot benefit from Spring Attack. The attack you make is part of the Charge action; it is not the Attack action.

-Hyp.

 

[FoxWander]

I'm jumping in this kind of late, but I just found this post and I'm playing a character who specializes in charging so this is suddenly relevant in my game. I've got a quick bit to say, a slight rant (which can be ignored so as to not further sidetrack the discussion- unless you like sidetracking, then by all means post away ), and a serious question at the end- so please pay attention to that part.

First off, I agree with most of you that (barring something special) you cannot combine a charge with spring attack. I'm posting because a "something special" has been mentioned (which lead me to this thread) but nobody has discussed how they think that may or may not change things. More on that after this...

[begin slight rant]
Second, I've seen (and read thru) this question posted both here and the WOTC boards and they all seem to get hung up on one thing- the definition of "an action" in D&D. The spring attack feat starts it all off when it talks about using an "attack action", and then things get all muddled with what kind of action charging is, and then surprise-round charging, and then it goes like it did here with zombies and trying to get better at moving and attacking by being slowedconfused and then Hypersmurf (who's usually spot on with these rules bits) goes and invents "charge actions".

Here's my problem with all this- there is no "attack action" (or "charge actions"). There's only this:

There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.

So, attacking is a type of standard action, full-attack is a type of full-round action, as is charging (which involves both moving and attacking), and so on and so on. My point is- definitions are important when you start asking/answering tricky rules questions, so when the books themselves, and us, start throwing those terms about willy-nilly it gets confusing/annoying real quick.

If only the spring attack feat had been "correctly" (imho) worded as- 'When using a standard action to attack with a melee weapon...' I believe these charging spring attack questions would never come up. They would obviously be incompatible action types.
[end rant] Feel free to ignore or discuss as you wish- but please chime in on this next bit


And now my real question- so charge and spring attack are (normally) incompatible because one requires a full-round action and the other is a standard action. Easy enough. But, what if you add 'something special'- the Boots of the Battle Charger (MIC p76) mentioned by StreamOfTheSky (and which my character is thinking to purchase). The boots allow you to "make a charge attack as a standard action (rather than a full-round action), though the charge only includes movement up to your speed (rather than double your speed)."

Now you're using a standard action to (charge) attack with a melee weapon- could you then use spring attack to move again after the attack? I'm thinking 'yes' but I'd like to hear what others think of how this works with the boots. And the sudden leap maneuver for that matter.

Thanks.

 

[Arkhandus]

No, even with that kind of item, you cannot charge and Spring Attack.

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Emphasis mine. Then check HERE in the SRD, looking at the table. Charge is listed as an action. It is not simply an option or subtype of the attack action, it is a distinct action of its own. Spring Attack only functions with the attack action specifically.

 

[Herzog]

As stated by FoxWander, there is no such thing as an 'attack action'.

When the rules refer to an attack action, they use that phrase to refer to making an attack.

A character with multiple attacks per round can make multiple 'attack actions' as a full round actions.

Freeing yourself from a grapple, for instance, requires an 'attack action'. If you have multiple attacks per round, you can attempt to free yourselfs multiple times.

The reason you cannot combine spring attack and charge lies in the description of charge.

From the description of charge:

You must move before your attack, not after.

In other words, charge specifically mentions you must not move after your attack.

If that is still ambiguous, consider this:
As you need to move into a straight line towards your opponent, and towards the square adjacent to your opponent and closest to you, you'd have to move through your opponent to continue your movement.

 

[Foxworthy]

As stated by FoxWander, there is no such thing as an 'attack action'.

I believe that's wrong. On the list of standard actions they have a column entitled 'action' the first action on that list [actually three] is Attack. So reading the chart if you spend a standard action you may take an action called an attack. Which is commonly referred to as an attack action.

Here's the chart.

When the rules refer to an attack action, they use that phrase to refer to making an attack.

A character with multiple attacks per round can make multiple 'attack actions' as a full round actions.

The Full Attack Action makes no reference to 'Attack Actions'. It does say you can make multiple attacks, but doesn't say you get multiple 'attack actions'.

Freeing yourself from a grapple, for instance, requires an 'attack action'. If you have multiple attacks per round, you can attempt to free yourselfs multiple times.

Again, grapple does not mention attack actions at all. In fact it specifically mentions that if you get multiple attacks due to BAB that you can make multiple grapple checks.

Other special attacks like disarm or sunder both specify that they replace a melee attack and not an attack action as well. The attack action is used very rarely compared top the more general terms 'attack' or specific terms 'melee attack', 'ranged attack', etc.

That's why I believe that Spring Attack only allows you to use the standard action choice named attack. Not any ability that allows allows you to make an attack.

As such since Charge is a full round action that grants you a melee attack you wouldn't be able to combine it with spring attack because charge doesn't give you a free standard action named attack, just the more generic melee attack. Just like cleave grants you a melee attack.

 

[thedmstrikes]

Wow....and I thought my players got into the rules alot....

I have a few things to contribute, so please be patient and of course, do not feel attacked or sleighted if I disagree with your interpretation. So, here we go:

It seemed that this question was answered by the time I logged in today, however, there are two points near the end I would like to address. First up is a disagrement based on a chart. I have been an active peruser of rules questions for quite some time and have even chatted with rules designers in the past over some trivial things. One of the things that all my sources are adamant in answering rules questions is that if there is a discrepancy between a chart and a text passage, the text passage trumps everytime. The charts are supposed to be placed there as a visual confirmation of the text and are not supposed to contradict them in any way. That said, 99.9% of these disagreements fall into one of two categories: typos and human error. Typos are self explanatory and usually corrected by updates and errata. Human error involves several different points of view, but normally the incorrect party figures things out when they recheck their facts against the chart again. Now that we have had to bear this entire disertation about charts and text, I believe the argument involving attacks based on the chart referenced is flawed becasue the title of the chart is standard actions. This completely agrees with the text in the SRD at the beginning of the section. An attack (any of three types) is a standard action and has been covered already in this post so I will not speak on it any further.

The second thing I would like to talk about is the Boots. I do not have any of my references available, so my logic may be flawed without consulting the text verbage, but if it is as simple as stating that a charge can be equal to a standard action instead of a full round action, I can offer this:

I would rule that the magic of the boots allows you to "charge" as a standard action (as if you had only a standard action), then you could take any free actions (sans 5' move as it is prohibited if you charge in any case) or move actions afterward (or before just to be thorough). Does this mean you can spring attack? No, not as I have presented it (for two reasons). First, the movement afterward would be a considered a different action and not subject to spring attack. Second, the charge description clearly states that the attack comes at the end of movement, thus leaving no opportunity to move afterward as part of the same action and thus activating the spring attack benefits. Here is the meat of this theory of mine: yes, technically the character has moved after the attack during the same round, but spring attack has to be part of a single action, not a full round of actions.

The character would still benefit from the effects of mobility and dodge (if used against the recipient of the charge) when he/she moves away after the attack. One last thing to consider (and you will not find this in the SRD) is there are a series of feats in one of the books I got from WOTC that augmented a charge (i.e. allowing a single 45 degree turn during the charge) but I do not remember the full range of them or their sourcebook name (I am away from home at the moment). One of these feats may be useful in deciphering the actual effects of the boots with a little more certainty.