D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[Shardstone]

I know what I like and what I want, so it is most definitely not a mistake for me. I also high damage attacks scare my players more then multiple low damage attacks. So for me and my group I am absolutely correct. That is really all I can base my judgement on (well not all, but that is the most important). So it may not be what others want, but it is what we want.

Interestingly, the Empyrean does 52 damage on an attack compared the this gold's 28. Which seems more threaten to you?

Man you're reminding me how cool Empyreans are.

 

[dave2008]

Ok. Bad phrasing from me.
I think it is a mistake to cite physics (mass) to have higher damage for big creatures as this is only only a part of it.

It wasn't exactly a physics argument. It was a dragon is nearly the biggest, most dangerous, monster a group can face. There size reflects that, and their damage should to IMO.

I don't go into an argument woth you here. I have never seen an Empyrean nor a dragon.

It has nothing to do with what you do or don't know about an Empyrean. It is simple which is more threaten to you as a player: being hit for 28 damage or being hit for 52 damage. It doesn't matter who is doing the damage.

Edit: another question.

What is more damaging? Falling on thousand needles or a single one?

Even if you know, what do you think will the majority of people answer?

I cannot not answer that question with a lot more information.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

still gets soloed by sorcerer/bard(wizard/druid) multiclass in one round...

No it doesn’t, how could it?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The base damage of the attacks looks atrocious. At CR 24 it should be dropping an Epic Tier PC each round, not each week.

Also while I could understand a bite attack (the round after it breathes fire) adding fire damage, having "Rend" just add fire damage doesn't make a lot of sense.

Not upping the Breath Weapon damage is particularly baffling. It would have to breathe fire on my Level 20 (2014 build) Fighter five times to drop him to 0 HP...and that assumes five fails saving at 12+ (with Indomitable). A Dragon using its breath weapon should always be its signature attack; in this case its an irrelevance against epic tier PCs.

Hopefully the Legendary Actions save it from being a total disaster. First big disappointment of the 2025 Monster Manual.

That damage should be doubled.

You are overestimating the Gold Dragon. Monsters are not supposed to drop them so fast. We need to see more still anyway

 

[InkTide]

That has been happing since shortly after the MM. The great wyrm dragons (CR 27 & 28) in Fizban's do less damage than the CR 24 ancient red and gold in the 2014 MM. I was hopeful they were not going to continue this trend in the 2024 MM as the ancient green dragon preview a few months ago had the same breath weapon damage it had in 2014. However, we now know that was not the final design, so it looks like things are point to nerfed breath weapon damage. A real shame IMO.

This is speculation, but I think this might be something they're doing to metallic breath weapons specifically, based on the comments Crawford was making in the dragons video about metallics being able to use breath weapons "twice as often" as chromatics. To me, that is a downright bizarre way to think about the balance of control breath abilities.

A brass dragon can't exactly put someone to double-sleep, so "breath rate" is going to be nearly equivalent to the chromatics most of the time in practice even with split cooldowns - control abilities don't generally stack. Bronze, with the only non-status control breath, is the only one that could theoretically stack, but can't in practice because it pushes the targets out of range of its repulsion breath, at least going by the 2014 MM. Repeated control/status abilities in D&D are generally just spending an action to force any targets that saved/avoided to make the save again, and meaningless otherwise. They get a nice one-two punch combo out of the deal (except brass, where the damaging breath invalidates the sleeping breath anyway), but that seems fine to me (albeit possibly slightly less flavorful than the shared cooldown).

They're being somewhat coy about the secondary breath abilities, so I wouldn't be surprised if those were nerfed as well.

Again, this is speculation.

 

[MGibster]

A brass dragon can't exactly put someone to double-sleep, so "breath rate" is going to be nearly equivalent to the chromatics most of the time in practice even with split cooldowns - control abilities don't generally stack.

If you can breathe quickly a second time, you have another chance to put those who made their saves last round to sleep.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It wasn't exactly a physics argument. It was a dragon is nearly the biggest, most dangerous, monster a group can face. There size reflects that, and their damage should to IMO.

Ok. So just feel.

It has nothing to do with what you do or don't know about an Empyrean. It is simple which is more threaten to you as a player: being hit for 28 damage or being hit for 52 damage. It doesn't matter who is doing the damage.

3*28 + breath weapon feels threatening enough.

I cannot not answer that question with a lot more information.

No. Actually those information should be sufficient.

But I make it more precise:

You step on a single nail, or on thousand nails with your foot.

 

[dave2008]

You step on a single nail, or on thousand nails with your foot.

Look, I know where you are going with this, but you need more information:

• Are the all the nails on end with point up, or just laying on the ground
• How thick are the nails
• How tall are the nails
• Am I wearing shoes or barefoot
• What is the spacing of the nails
• What type of nails: cut nails, 10 penny, rail road spikes, finish nails, roofing nails, etc.
• Are all the nails the same, or do they differ?

 

[dave2008]

3*28 + breathbweapon feels threatening enough.

I guess your refusal to answer the question, really proves my point doesn't it?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I guess your refusal to answer the question, really proves my point doesn't it?

Offending.
I answered it.

3+28 is as threatening as 2*58.
And since you want more information:

• What is the attack bonus?
• How many of those attacks?
• Which damage Type?
• What weapon delivers it?
• Are there other effects in addition to that one attack?
• How easy is it to avoid that attack?

And so on.

Just a number in a Vacuum is not enough to threaten me.