Spelljammer Chris Perkins and Ray Winninger Interview Discussing Spelljammer and Product Development

[JEB]

What's funny is, somehow, 5e is getting closer to AD&D with the number of officially supported settings it has.

Yeah, I've also been having the thought that 2024 edition vs. 2014 5E resembles the 1E to 2E shift. The proliferation of settings is part of that (we know at least three more are planned as we head towards 2024), but also the emphasis on making the settings part of an interconnected multiverse. Not to mention the tonal shifts in the wake of both mass popularity and criticism of certain content, and the resultant changes with an eye towards growing mass appeal. Heck, they even brought back setting-specific Monstrous Compendiums! (Complete with 2E-styled cover art.)

 

[JEB]

Also, no setting that comes out, not even Greyhawk, will have as its core identity anything like "No Dragonborn No Tieflings". That's seems pretty opposed to 5e's core identity. If 5e Ravenloft has these races, 5e Greyhawk certainly will as well.

Theros had no dragonborn, no tieflings, and in fact no core PHB races besides humans. Granted, MTG settings might be treated differently, and that was pre-Tasha... but still, limited-race settings have been done under 5E.

 

[Mercurius]

raises hand

I would argue that Mystara is the Quasi-Historical setting. I mean, you’ve got (almost literally) the Roman Empire and Vikings in a military alliance with each other against Atlantis.

I just wanted to mention bearded elves, is all.

 

[Mercurius]

Unlikely. I believe that Gary's widow retains the rights to Gord and she's been infamously unwilling to work with anyone.

Woe is us - no Gord the Rogue!

 

[lkj]

Yeah, I've also been having the thought that 2024 edition vs. 2014 5E resembles the 1E to 2E shift. The proliferation of settings is part of that (we know at least three more are planned as we head towards 2024), but also the emphasis on making the settings part of an interconnected multiverse. Not to mention the tonal shifts in the wake of both mass popularity and criticism of certain content, and the resultant changes with an eye towards growing mass appeal. Heck, they even brought back setting-specific Monstrous Compendiums! (Complete with 2E-styled cover art.)

Perhaps the key difference now is that each setting is no longer launching a whole new line of products. They seem, largely, to be one-offs, with FR still being the exception. The multiverse part seems to be a light touch way of making every one of the books part of a 'multiversal setting'.

Perhaps this is the compromise way of allowing them to take the best part of 2E (freedom to explore all kinds of different worlds and types of adventures) with less potential for the downside of splitting their audience among a large number of product lines.

AD

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

They seem, largely, to be one-offs, with FR still being the exception.

And Exandria. And Ravenloft. And one other setting in 2024, apparently. Greyhawk might even count with all of the adventures it gets in the anthologies.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except that there clearly isn't anywhere near "enough", or Mearls would not have three people rushing to defed him already!

What would you prefer happen to Mearls then?

 

[Micah Sweet]

What would you prefer happen to Mearls then?

Please ignore. Didn't realize we were off this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, I like it, but that sort of direct analogue is not very in vogue, for some decent reasons.

Quasi-historical fiction is a perfectly valid form. We all know a lot of people were awful in the past. That doesn't mean that we can't mine anything from it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Theros had no dragonborn, no tieflings, and in fact no core PHB races besides humans. Granted, MTG settings might be treated differently, and that was pre-Tasha... but still, limited-race settings have been done under 5E.

I really think Magic settings are a different beast.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Theros had no dragonborn, no tieflings, and in fact no core PHB races besides humans. Granted, MTG settings might be treated differently, and that was pre-Tasha... but still, limited-race settings have been done under 5E.

Pre-Tasha is very much a different beast too.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Quasi-historical fiction is a perfectly valid form. We all know a lot of people were awful in the past. That doesn't mean that we can't mine anything from it.

I don't think that's what @Parmandur was remarking on. The part of Mystara's base premise that I find objectionable is completely ripping off real-world cultures (or caricatures of them) and slapping them on various D&D races. That is what leads to awful, racist products like Orcs of Thar.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think that's what @Parmandur was remarking on. The part of Mystara's base premise that I find objectionable is completely ripping off real-world cultures (or caricatures of them) and slapping them on various D&D races. That is what leads to awful, racist products like Orcs of Thar.

What if they were human cultures instead? Would it make any difference? How accurate does a culture have to be for you to not consider it a caricature?

 

[Parmandur]

What if they were human cultures instead? Would it make any difference? How accurate does a culture have to be for you to not consider it a caricature?

No, human cultures as 1 dimensional stereotypes is pretty bad, too. It is better to be as divorced as possible from real cultures.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

What if they were human cultures instead?

Then Orcs of Thar would still be racist. Clearly it's more than just that.

Would it make any difference?

Probably. But also probably not enough to get rid of all of the problems with it.

How accurate does a culture have to be for you to not consider it a caricature?

For me, it's generally an "I'll know it when I see it" kind of thing. People of those cultures might have specific points. It depends on the culture, the execution, and the tone that the product has about that culture. But a core part of avoiding caricaturing a culture is to involve people of that culture (or that have studied it extensively and know about the topic). Cultural consultants are important. And early D&D products based on real-world cultures, from what I've heard, did not have them. The upcoming Radiant Citadel and Mystara have similar ideas of adopting real-world cultures for D&D settings, but I have no doubt that Radiant Citadel will do it better than Mystara did.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, human cultures as 1 dimensional stereotypes is pretty bad, too. It is better to be as divorced as possible from real cultures.

Real cultures are what we have to work with. Narrative's ingredients are the world we live in, enhanced by our imagination.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then Orcs of Thar would still be racist. Clearly it's more than just that.

Probably. But also probably not enough to get rid of all of the problems with it.

For me, it's generally an "I'll know it when I see it" kind of thing. People of those cultures might have specific points. It depends on the culture, the execution, and the tone that the product has about that culture. But a core part of avoiding caricaturing a culture is to involve people of that culture (or that have studied it extensively and know about the topic). Cultural consultants are important. And early D&D products based on real-world cultures, from what I've heard, did not have them. The upcoming Radiant Citadel and Mystara have similar ideas of adopting real-world cultures for D&D settings, but I have no doubt that Radiant Citadel will do it better than Mystara did.

Oriental Adventures had cultural consultants too, but no one ever seems to give them credit for that. Public opinion will try any creative work as they see fit.

 

[Parmandur]

Real cultures are what we have to work with. Narrative's ingredients are the world we live in, enhanced by our imagination.

Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk do a better job remixing to prevent those sort of 1-dimensional takes.

 

[Azzy]

Oriental Adventures had cultural consultants too, but no one ever seems to give them credit for that. Public opinion will try any creative work as they see fit.

A handful of Japanese playtesters do not cultural consultants make.

 

[lkj]

And Exandria. And Ravenloft. And one other setting in 2024, apparently. Greyhawk might even count with all of the adventures it gets in the anthologies.

While I don't disagree that those are worlds that showed up in more than one product, I think it's hard to argue those are lines in the same sense as 2E.

Though, arguably, the critical role books come closest

AD