Clarification: Surprise Rounds

[Hypersmurf]

Furthermore, it does not say that you get a turn; it says that you can take an action.

Interesting - it looks like nobody can take immediate or opportunity actions during the surprise round, either. Even if they aren't surprised.

It also puts certain limits on some powers in the surprise round. For example, a Paladin can't use Divine Challenge, since "You can use divine challenge once per turn."

-Hyp.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm actually kind of surprised. I didn't think people would agree with the DM (silly me). I get the argument, and I can see how RAW it can be interpreted either way.

Well, you see, there's your mistake - never expect to be able to post anything on the internet, no matter how reasonable, and have everyone agree with you. And if you are surprised, can I now take my surprise round against you?


Light Phoenix, I disagree with you - the only reason it specifically mentions those acting as getting turns is because they are the only ones whose turns really matter. Additionally:

- It doesn't say that the surprised ones don't get turns, but simply don't get actions on their turns - look at page 277 on the page of conditions - compare stunned, unconscious and surprised - they use identical language (well, except the bit about free actions in the surprised condition, which is wrong).

- The rules specifically describe it as a "round", not simply as extra actions, and the rules make clear that in a round a creature ALWAYS takes the beginning and end of their turns (see pp. 268-69).


That said, I'm not at your gaming table, so I don't care how you play it.


However you rule it, I think its important to be consistent. No turn = no beginning of turn = no ongoing damage in the surprise round. The party may be disappointed to find that that acid arrow that the wizard cast doesn't do ongoing damage to that nice clump of foes the wizard targetted.

As well, it won't always be the monsters who are being surprised - while a party may be disappointed when their sleep doesn't work like they expected, I think they would be equally pissed by being surprised and stunned with no way to do anything for 2+ rounds.

One thing that is important to realise, that the save system of 4e with the condition being imposed on the attacker's turn and ended (by a successful save) on the defenders can result in a number of situations that "feel wierd" - one of which is the surprise round described by the OP. The "feel wierd" moment was likely hightened by surprise rounds being rather anemic in 4e - one typically can't even use a melee power in them, as one has to charge as their sole action.

Another example of a feel wierd situation generated by the save/condition rules is if you hold an action and attack a monster on its turn - if you impose an effect on it (such as ongoing damage with, say, acid arrow), since it gets a save at the end of its turn, it may very well save before it suffers any ill-effects.

Now, if one of those "feel wierd" situations surprises the players, I can understand how they might be upset. If they are aware of the way the mechanic causes "feel wierd" moments, it becomes a matter of tactics - rather than using sleep in the surprise round/holding an action with acid arrow, you use some other power instead.

 

[Davachido]

I know I'm a new poster and all but I've had quite a bit of experience with RAW v RAI between some people at our 30+ people D&D games. (I still think charging while prone should be disallowed...)

I think you guys are kind of looking at this at the wrong angle, instead of looking at the rules for 'rounds' why don't we look at the rules for 'effects'. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the combat section for the effects there is specification for what happens during the surprise round (so in the case of the roll to save, I think its can't roll until first round of combat). I don't have the book on me at the moment as I'm at work, but if someone wants to check.

Something similar to this came up with one of the warlords epic paths in one of our games. I will try to dig it up but it is something to do with the fact that the surprise round is different to the first round and it isn't actually a 'round' as such.

Edit: also forgot there is specific instants you can't make saving throws listed in the saving throws section so checking that too may help.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It doesn't say that the surprised ones don't get turns...

Actually, if the quote by LightPhoenix is the complete set of rules on the surprise round, then the surprise round is a special case round and it's explicit that surprised characters don't get turns. The only ones who get turns are those characters who are not surprised.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Nope, nothing about surprise rounds under the effects/conditions section, Davidchido, except to say that "surprised" is a condition.

Infiniti2000, that is the exact language, but from the turn summary. The actual The Surprise Round (p. 267) entry uses somewhat different language and explicitly describes it as a "round" where surprised creatures get no actions, rather than simply a series of extra actions.

Personally, I think that the rules contained in the actual entry trump those in the summary, but YMMV and I do understand there is some ambiguity.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Interesting - it looks like nobody can take immediate or opportunity actions during the surprise round, either. Even if they aren't surprised.

Correct. In fact, it's explicitly stated that if you can not act in the surprise round, you can not take any action. Furthermore, since you only get one action, you can't use any immediate actions on the actions you've used.

It also puts certain limits on some powers in the surprise round. For example, a Paladin can't use Divine Challenge, since "You can use divine challenge once per turn."

It would be pointless if you get turns in the surprise round, since you have to engage the enemy by the end of your turn. If you assume the surprise round is a turn, then you lose your challenge when your turn in the surprise round ends, since you can't take another action to engage.

Since the surprise round is not a turn, that line does not apply. The purpose of that line is to set a limit for how many times you can use it per turn. It doesn't apply to the surprise round, since it's not a turn.

I would allow it even if that turns out not to be the case, under the clause of "not screwing the players." Besides, I think it's a cool visual for the Paladin to burst into a room in surprise and throw down.

- It doesn't say that the surprised ones don't get turns, but simply don't get actions on their turns - look at page 277 on the page of conditions - compare stunned, unconscious and surprised - they use identical language (well, except the bit about free actions in the surprised condition, which is wrong).

At no point does the book ever use the term "turn" with the surprise round. The book even specifically separates the two in the description of combat. Just because similar language is used does not mean they are the same. For one, you can't have the "surprised" status any time other than the surprise round, which already makes it different.

- The rules specifically describe it as a "round", not simply as extra actions, and the rules make clear that in a round a creature ALWAYS takes the beginning and end of their turns (see pp. 268-69).

Those sections do not apply. Page 266 clearly delineates between normal rounds in which you get turns, and all the baggage that comes with them, and the surprise round in which you get a single action.

That said, I'm not at your gaming table, so I don't care how you play it. However you rule it, I think its important to be consistent.

I know you have rules ninjas poised to strike me down. I agree, it's important to be consistent, however the DM chooses to rule it.

No turn = no beginning of turn = no ongoing damage in the surprise round. The party may be disappointed to find that that acid arrow that the wizard cast doesn't do ongoing damage to that nice clump of foes the wizard targetted.

That's correct. Acid Arrow will do damage and apply the effect. Since ongoing damage happens at the start of the turn, you'll still get the damage against all of the enemies you hit. But you don't get to double-dip.

As well, it won't always be the monsters who are being surprised - while a party may be disappointed when their sleep doesn't work like they expected, I think they would be equally pissed by being surprised and stunned with no way to do anything for 2+ rounds.

Been there, done that - DM ambushed us while we slept, guard failed Perception check, I went bloodied from four hits before I could even act (and was still prone). It sucks, but that's why surprise is such a good tactical strategy.

One thing that is important to realise, that the save system of 4e with the condition being imposed on the attacker's turn and ended (by a successful save) on the defenders can result in a number of situations that "feel wierd" - one of which is the surprise round described by the OP. The "feel wierd" moment was likely hightened by surprise rounds being rather anemic in 4e - one typically can't even use a melee power in them, as one has to charge as their sole action.

That doesn't feel weird to me at all. That seems like exactly what would happen in a tactical situation. Your Rogues/Rangers/Assassins should be investing in Stealth to get in close. If you don't, you hang back and charge in at the right moment.

Another example of a feel wierd situation generated by the save/condition rules is if you hold an action and attack a monster on its turn - if you impose an effect on it (such as ongoing damage with, say, acid arrow), since it gets a save at the end of its turn, it may very well save before it suffers any ill-effects.

That's an unfortunate consequence with any sort of immediate reaction/interrupt, not with the save/condition rules.

Now, if one of those "feel wierd" situations surprises the players, I can understand how they might be upset. If they are aware of the way the mechanic causes "feel wierd" moments, it becomes a matter of tactics - rather than using sleep in the surprise round/holding an action with acid arrow, you use some other power instead.

Your examples don't entirely make sense to me. You'll still get the ongoing damage from Acid Arrow, since they won't be able to save against it until it takes effect once. You'll still get the slow effect from Sleep, and you still get the chance to fall unconscious. You don't get penalized for using them in the surprise round. You just don't get to double dip.

 

[Camelot]

I would have to agree with the DM on this one. The suprised condition states:

* You grant combat advantage.
* You can't take actions.
* You can't flank an enemy.

Actually, looking at it now, I realize that it's the exact same thing as stunned. If a monster is stunned, they still get their start and end of turns.

Also, check out the PHB p. 268. Turns are clearly divided into Start, Actions, and End. On the topic of surprise, it only ever states that you get no actions. It never says you don't get a turn if you're not surprised. Therefore, I would think that you still get the start and end of your turn, you just skip the action phase.

I think the comparison between stunned and surprised simplifies the matter. Basically, during a surprise round, the combatants who are not surprised get one action and the combatants who are surprised are stunned.

This still leaves the question of whether combatants who are not surprised can take opportunity and/or immediate actions. I would like to see what people think about this.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It would be pointless if you get turns in the surprise round, since you have to engage the enemy by the end of your turn. If you assume the surprise round is a turn, then you lose your challenge when your turn in the surprise round ends, since you can't take another action to engage.

Well, it would likely take coordination. The invoker moves you close to the target as part of his surprise round action, and then the paladin (on his turn in the surprise round) tries a divine challenge (no attack or anything, but now he's adjacent). Can he do it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

It would be pointless if you get turns in the surprise round, since you have to engage the enemy by the end of your turn. If you assume the surprise round is a turn, then you lose your challenge when your turn in the surprise round ends, since you can't take another action to engage.

I can think of several ways.

1. Surprise Round begins with the Paladin adjacent to an enemy.
2. Surprise Round begins. Unsurprised enemy charges paladin or moves adjacent. Unsurprised paladin challenges enemy.
3. I2K's scenario, where another PC grants the Paladin movement somehow to end up adjacent to an enemy. Paladin challenges.

But since the limitation on Divine Challenge is once per turn, he can only Challenge if he has a turn...

The purpose of that line is to set a limit for how many times you can use it per turn. It doesn't apply to the surprise round, since it's not a turn.

If the surprise round is not a turn, then the limitation imposed by that line prohibits the use of Divine Challenge!

That's correct. Acid Arrow will do damage and apply the effect. Since ongoing damage happens at the start of the turn, you'll still get the damage against all of the enemies you hit. But you don't get to double-dip.

But the ongoing damage, under the no-turn reading, won't apply even to enemies who take an action in the surprise round.

Surprise action: Unsurprised wizard uses Acid Arrow, imposing ongoing damage on the unsurprised orc.
Surprise action: Unsurprised orc charges unsurprised wizard.

If these surprise actions take place within turns, the orc takes ongoing damage, then charges, then makes a saving throw. If they don't, he takes no damage, but doesn't get to make a save, and will take damage at the start of his turn in the first regular round.

Furthermore, since you only get one action, you can't use any immediate actions on the actions you've used.

But you can't even take an immediate action as your one action, should the trigger arise.

Also, check out the PHB p. 268. Turns are clearly divided into Start, Actions, and End. On the topic of surprise, it only ever states that you get no actions. It never says you don't get a turn if you're not surprised. Therefore, I would think that you still get the start and end of your turn, you just skip the action phase.

The point LightPhoenix is making isn't that surprised creatures get no turns; it's that nobody gets a turn in the surprise round.

The Combat Sequence says that we:
- roll initiative, then
- take surprise actions, then
- take turns.

Taking turns is something that happens after surprise actions have been resolved, therefore (the argument goes) while surprise actions are being taken, turns have not yet started. Thus, surprise actions are taken outside of the turn structure; while you're taking actions in the surprise round, it it nobody's turn.

-Hyp.

 

[Davachido]

I'm not quite sure if its been said already but, page 267 states that:

"When any combatants achieve surprise, they act in initiative order during the surprise round. Surprised combatants don't act at all during the surprise round."

RAW would be hard with this as it doesn't state that surprised combatants get a turn or not although it implies they don't as it specifies that those doing the surprising do get their turn .

However something to note, that the surprised from the surprised round is different than the surprised in the status effects section. Essentially they screw up in trying to make this work but.. for me RAI is Surprised combatants don't get a turn as they don't act at all and don't even get their oppurtunity actions/IR/IIs if you are going off the 'Surprised' rule on p.267 as opposed to the status effect.