D&D 5E Class Analysis: Fighter and Bard

[Uskglass]

Now for this character there is no screwing about with potions and books and arcane gestures. He is simply a force of supernatural rage and badassery, whose abilities are throttled by the same chart that limits other supernatural buttkickers. Would this be an acceptable character? If not, is there an objection that does not lie at the metagame level of labeling his abilities as spells?

It's definitely getting closer.
Now we need to take one step further and make these kind of 'spells' not dailies, to make it feel physical rather than abstract/intellectual (and to differentiate from casters too, as we don't want all classes to play the same). Let's have a stamina system for instance. But look, we have it already: we can use the Battle Master Superiority dice for that!
And I like the use of concentration you suggest.

 

[LapBandit]

It's definitely getting closer.
Now we need to take one step further and make these kind of 'spells' not dailies, to make it feel physical rather than abstract/intellectual (and to differentiate from casters too, as we don't want all classes to play the same). Let's have a stamina system for instance. But look, we have it already: we can use the Battle Master Superiority dice for that!
And I like the use of concentration you suggest.

I like the idea of giving all fighters superiority dice that they can use for default fighter abilities or their sub-class specific abilities.

 

[Andor]

It's definitely getting closer.
Now we need to take one step further and make these kind of 'spells' not dailies, to make it feel physical rather than abstract/intellectual (and to differentiate from casters too, as we don't want all classes to play the same). Let's have a stamina system for instance. But look, we have it already: we can use the Battle Master Superiority dice for that!
And I like the use of concentration you suggest.

Concentration is the standard "Prevent the buffs from stacking" mechanic in 5e so it seemed appropriate. When we do see martial stances pop up in 5e I won't be a bit surprised it they use the Concentration mechanic.

And as a footnote we do actually have a caster class who runs on a short rest basis in the Warlock.

I wonder if something we're missing about the Champion/Battlemaster is in the DMG. Any magic weapon that has an effect that triggers on a crit is vastly more powerful in a Champions hands than in anyone elses. Likewise there may well be magic items that interact with the Battle Masters dice as well. Now magic items are not assumed in 5e, but you can't ignore them either. A 1e Paladin had no guarantee of getting a Hloy Avenger, but damned if he didn't shine when he got one.

There may also be magic items that are not keyed off of class abilities, but still benefit the mundane classes disproportionately.. For example a Dark Iron sword that has a 5' radius anti-magic field.

 

[Uskglass]

Concentration is the standard "Prevent the buffs from stacking" mechanic in 5e so it seemed appropriate. When we do see martial stances pop up in 5e I won't be a bit surprised it they use the Concentration mechanic.

Me neither. Actually it's how I do stances in my homebrew system (minus the breaking on damage)

And as a footnote we do actually have a caster class who runs on a short rest basis in the Warlock.

Indeed. And it's the only caster that intrigues me to play - but I have to say that the bard has definitely gone up in consideration upon this thread!

I wonder if something we're missing about the Champion/Battlemaster is in the DMG.

One can hope. I personally think the required changes are too extensive and would require a splatbook, Tome of Battle style. We'll see.

Any magic weapon that has an effect that triggers on a crit is vastly more powerful in a Champions hands than in anyone elses. Likewise there may well be magic items that interact with the Battle Masters dice as well. Now magic items are not assumed in 5e, but you can't ignore them either. A 1e Paladin had no guarantee of getting a Hloy Avenger, but damned if he didn't shine when he got one.

There may also be magic items that are not keyed off of class abilities, but still benefit the mundane classes disproportionately.. For example a Dark Iron sword that has a 5' radius anti-magic field.

I'm not big on reliance on magic items, so I'm not counting on that. In case, I'd consider making the items properties inherent to the character instead.

 

[sithramir]

So it becomes a "battle bard" focused with fighter and subtracting all the fluff? These non magical "spells" suddenly make a fighter complex .

Or they are limited as class abilities? Now you lose versatility. The perfect example of this being what about being able to jump really far...

It becomes extremely difficult to allow it to stay somewhat simple and not meet several different epic charactrr configurations

 

[Marshall]

Of course it's magic. It's a myth and he is a Mythical hero. If you want to make a counter-arguement kindly make a video of yourself holding your breath for 5 days. Physically possible? No? Then it's magic.

No. Noone here is 20th level, or 10th level or even 5th level. Nor does anyone here have any experience with what a 20th level person can do outside the game fiction. You're also falling into the trap of assuming your personal experience is the limits of 'normal' capability. I'd prefer to assume that a 20th fighter is a super elite warrior capable of acts that go beyond what a modern GI considers a days work, instead of only being able to accomplish what pencil geek in his mom's basement is jealous of the local high school hero for doing.

 

[yakuba]

No. Noone here is 20th level, or 10th level or even 5th level. Nor does anyone here have any experience with what a 20th level person can do outside the game fiction. You're also falling into the trap of assuming your personal experience is the limits of 'normal' capability. I'd prefer to assume that a 20th fighter is a super elite warrior capable of acts that go beyond what a modern GI considers a days work, instead of only being able to accomplish what pencil geek in his mom's basement is jealous of the local high school hero for doing.

The personal experience question is irrelevant. The game designer has to decide what max-level means. For a fighter developers could take the 4e approach and say that max-level fighter yields a Heracles demigod experience. In 5e the developers clearly decided that max-level would be more of a Lord of the Rings experience. Both are valid design choices and it's also totally valid for people to be unhappy that 5e chose a standard that they don't like.

..., instead of only being able to accomplish what pencil geek in his mom's basement is jealous of the local high school hero for doing.

I missed the post where someone actually said that, or were you just trying demean people whose opinion differs from you own?

 

[Bluenose]

The personal experience question is irrelevant. The game designer has to decide what max-level means. For a fighter developers could take the 4e approach and say that max-level fighter yields a Heracles demigod experience. In 5e the developers clearly decided that max-level would be more of a Lord of the Rings experience. Both are valid design choices and it's also totally valid for people to be unhappy that 5e chose a standard that they don't like.

But if you're going to make the choice one way for one class, doesn't that sort of suggest making the other one for other classes fails in any intent to have a plausible and consistent style of setting?

 

[Jack the Lad]

The personal experience question is irrelevant. The game designer has to decide what max-level means. For a fighter developers could take the 4e approach and say that max-level fighter yields a Heracles demigod experience. In 5e the developers clearly decided that max-level would be more of a Lord of the Rings experience.

Except that they didn't. Look at the Fighter Design Goals. Look at the descriptions of the tiers of play on page 15.

They tell us quite clearly what being max level is supposed to mean, even for the Fighter; being a one-man army - a heroic archetype in their own right - capable of defeating dragons singlehanded, killing 400 men in a battle, wrestling a giant naked and tearing its arm off or taking a wizard's entire daily allotment of spells to the face and fighting on.

Instead we've ended up with a Fighter not even as capable as Boromir.

 

[yakuba]

Except that they didn't. Look at the Fighter Design Goals. Look at the descriptions of the tiers of play on page 15.

They tell us quite clearly what being max level is supposed to mean, even for the Fighter.

The Fighter design goals only define the fighter relative to other classes, and my point did not address that. I tend to agree with the OP on that count.

On PHB p15:

At the fourth tier (levels 17-20), characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic (or villainous) archetypes in their own right. The fate of the world or even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures.

How is this inconsistent with what I said? The fate of the world depends on the actions of the Fellowship, and the fighters are clearly shown being far elevated from the common in their prowess, but they do not have mythic powers or strength, at no point does Gimli divert the flow of a river to clean out some stables, nor does Legolas hold his breath for 5 days.

Fantasy literature as well as our myths and legends are incredibly diverse. This creates a huge window for any game designer to designate as the max level experience.

They did not promise you Heracles in this edition.