D&D General class consept question?

[FrogReaver]

I will consider I am annoying yes but the fiction does not make sense I have heard in the past editions they served the gods and that worked much better in how they got their power, an oath can change people but warp reality not so much.

And yet you believe that hard study will allow a Wizard to warp reality. Don't you see the hypocrisy?

the divine connection is what confuses me as to how that works without a god is not something people have explained to me.

Think of them similar to Druids but more representative of traditional Cleric domains. So instead of being in tune with nature they are in tune with life/storms/war/etc.

sorcerers make sense in how they do it I just hate it, mechanically they are fine to me just thematically toxic.

Well that's better. Most heroes in old literature were portrayed as more than human. I'm not sure why that is thematically toxic?

warlock and clerics are very similar to me they are made to serve also never gotten a sufficiently good patron idea nor found one, as they are both based on how humans relate to gods in old faiths.

Warlocks and Clerics are similar in that they both obtain their power outside themselves. Could they be combined into a single class - sure! Most classes could be as there's usually some overlap such that we could group them together if desired. But they don't really need to be combined.

sorcerers just disgust me power by bloodline is not a trope I like at all.

Okay, but why?

on where magic comes from.
arcane manipulation of a back layer of reality that can be subject to sapient thought through the correct means sort of like being able to hack the worse code but with a side order of magic and a force of nature it is a mindless thing that can warp sections of reality depending on the intensity or how focused an area is with an arcane polarity.

divine magic is theurgic in nature it is gifted power normally from Moralia entities or embodiments of concept with sufficient weight.

Sounds like you get divine magic. Do you just not like it either? If not, why not?

 

[Mind of tempest]

Sorcerer = Innately Magical Person (manipulates the back layer of reality due to their nature)
Cleric = Magical Priest (manipulates the back layer of reality due to God granted power)
Warlock = Magical Bargain (manipulates the back layer of reality due to patron granted power)
Druid = Magical Naturalist (manipulates the back layer of reality due to their connection and understanding of nature)

Seems to me your explanation for what magic is applies to all the classes. They each manipulate the back layer of reality, albeit in different ways. That you accept that explanation for a Wizard and not for the others strikes me as a bit irrational?

all divine magic is bargain magic with powerful beings, so paladins, clerics, druids, warlocks and magic rangers all work on the same basic metaphysical framework which does not necessarily interact with the arcane framework as to why should they be similar beyond the convince of spell structure.

I know bards and sorcerer cast magic in a way similar to wizards I just do not get how bards do it nor where they as an idea comes from?
I know what sorcerers are I just literally dislike the thematic concept, it reads as dislikable to me.

Psionic ardent, totem shaman, a reboot of the vestige binder, or my main suggestion, the nagual, a skin-walker, something like the sifter class from Pathfinder.

Nagual - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am familiar with psionic but they seem unlikely to be properly supported in this edition so little hope there.

vestige?
totem shaman and this nagual seem divine in nature certainly the latter as that sound like the druid class.
the former I am less knowledgeable on shamans as a concept thus I do not know.

If you don't get it, it is a wonderful thing to try. One of the uses of role playing outside of games is allowing people a chance to "walk in the shoes of another" and come to understand things they do not. I'm not telling you to do it or anything along those lines... just mentioning it.

As for not seeing how they would not just be the same thing as a wizard, I do not know what you mean? From a lore perspective? From a mechanical perspective? I mentioned a bunch of different ideas and none of them play like a wizard in my setting, and there is a lot of hours logged in that campaign in this, and most prior, editions.

it is not that I do not understand that but am unable to replicate it at all, like faith in anything other than that thing just getting worse is seemingly impossible to me nor do I see it, I know what it means but can't replicate it, try explaining colour to something which has always been blind.

if clerics just manipulate energy to cast spells that is a wizard with a lot of faith in the correctness of light for an example.

 

[FrogReaver]

all divine magic is bargain magic with powerful beings, so paladins, clerics, druids, warlocks and magic rangers all work on the same basic metaphysical framework which does not necessarily interact with the arcane framework as to why should they be similar beyond the convince of spell structure.

I know bards and sorcerer cast magic in a way similar to wizards I just do not get how bards do it nor where they as an idea comes from?
I know what sorcerers are I just literally dislike the thematic concept, it reads as dislikable to me.

I am familiar with psionic but they seem unlikely to be properly supported in this edition so little hope there.

vestige?
totem shaman and this nagual seem divine in nature certainly the latter as that sound like the druid class.
the former I am less knowledgeable on shamans as a concept thus I do not know.

it is not that I do not understand that but am unable to replicate it at all, like faith in anything other than that thing just getting worse is seemingly impossible to me nor do I see it, I know what it means but can't replicate it, try explaining colour to something which has always been blind.

if clerics just manipulate energy to cast spells that is a wizard with a lot of faith in the correctness of light for an example.

I believe you get all the concepts, you just dislike them. So feel free to rant away at the things you dislike. I'm out.

 

[Charlaquin]

I know bards and sorcerer cast magic in a way similar to wizards I just do not get how bards do it nor where they as an idea comes from?

It’s fundamentally the same thing Wizards do. Manipulating the weave with sounds and gestures. They just produce the sounds with musical instruments instead of their vocal folds (or in some cases they do use their vocal folds).

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Sometimes I have thought about a nagual class like a mixture of Vestige Binder class (Tome of Magic 3.5) and Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. How to explain it? The nagual or skinwalker summon a totem. This totem gives a special "skin", and this works like a mini-monster template or prestige class adding special monster traits. But this monster traits can be upgraded or improved as the metamagic feats using "points of essence" in special body slots. Some special attacs are not at-will neither once-encounters but they can be reloaded with special (no)actions to recover the breath and energy, like in those old arcades where you push a bottom for a little time for a stonger attack.

* Maybe the psionic ardent could be a future subclass for clerics or paladins. I like the concept because this can create storyes about hate-love relations with the rest of the divine spellcasters. These don't like to be told their gods are willing to "hire freelancers" when they couldn't trust their own clergy.

 

[Mind of tempest]

It’s fundamentally the same thing Wizards do. Manipulating the weave with sounds and gestures. They just produce the sounds with musical instruments instead of their vocal folds (or in some cases they do use their vocal folds).

okay so if I hit a drum just the right way I will cast a fireball then?

Sometimes I have thought about a nagual class like a mixture of Vestige Binder class (Tome of Magic 3.5) and Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. How to explain it? The nagual or skinwalker summon a totem. This totem gives a special "skin", and this works like a mini-monster template or prestige class adding special monster traits. But this monster traits can be upgraded or improved as the metamagic feats using "points of essence" in special body slots. Some special attacs are not at-will neither once-encounters but they can be reloaded with special (no)actions to recover the breath and energy, like in those old arcades where you push a bottom for a little time for a stonger attack.

* Maybe the psionic ardent could be a future subclass for clerics or paladins. I like the concept because this can create storyes about hate-love relations with the rest of the divine spellcasters. These don't like to be told their gods are willing to "hire freelancers" when they couldn't trust their own clergy.

I think I had a similar idea once but I started with trying to make a psion warrior with a thematic element more than casts spells and hits things.

your ardent idea I do not get at all, as that could be just any adventure honestly.

 

[Charlaquin]

okay so if I hit a drum just the right way I will cast a fireball then?

Well, not fireball specifically, that’s not on the bard spell list. But, like, Charm Person, sure.

And it’s not just hitting the drum the right way. It’s also dancing the right steps, singing the right lyrics, imbuing them with the right intention, and spending the right spell slot. Just like a wizard can cast fireball by fiddling with bat guano or a magic wand the right way, making the right hand gestures, saying the right words, imbuing them with the right intention, and spending the right spell slot.

They’re both arcane casters. They both study the weave and learn to manipulate it with sound and gesture. Bards just do it with musical flair.

 

[Laurefindel]

It's been a long time but if I recall correctly, the cleric was refluffed as a white wizard (of some sort) in the Lankhmar setting, transforming the arcane/divine dichotomy in a white/black magic divide.

Ultimately, arcane/divine is simply two magical meta-traditions that don't have to include faith or inherent spirituality, or good magic vs bad magic.

So go ahead and refluff divine magic as another branch of magic; there is an official precedent. In 5e this is particularly easy to do. Heck, arcane/divine could be two rival magical colleges with slightly different approaches as to how magic should be taught.

 

[jgsugden]

...
it is not that I do not understand that but am unable to replicate it at all, like faith in anything other than that thing just getting worse is seemingly impossible to me nor do I see it, I know what it means but can't replicate it, try explaining colour to something which has always been blind.

If you mean this, it could be a sign that you could benefit from speaking to a mental health professional. That is for you to determine. No need to share your thoughts on it with strangers on a web forum.

if clerics just manipulate energy to cast spells that is a wizard with a lot of faith in the correctness of light for an example.

A wizard studies the arcane and bends magic to their will. They use their intellect to shape energies. They figure out magic, and make it theirs to command through study and intricate manipulation. They rely upon their intelligence and mental finesse.

A traditional cleric prays to the Gods. They give faith to those Gods, as a gift, and out of a sense of loyalty and duty. The God grant them power to allows them to further their duty and achieve great things in the service of the domains of the Gods. This is not truly an exchange ... it is the Gods allowing their allies better tools to achieve shared goals.

A Cleric of Ao (the Universe) in my homebrew appreciates the majesty of all that exists and offers their life in service to that eternity. The eternity, without thought or goal, offers them magic to further that service. It is even less of an exchange than the clerical service of clerics serving traditional Gods.

A bard doesn't study magic. It doesn't use intellect to bring about magic - it is a matter of their force of personality. They pull magic from the universe through sheer power of their charisma. This is a blunt profess, not one honed on intricacies or quite control... it is loud and proud. They sing and inspire with their magic, sharing the strength in their soul with others.

A druid in my campaign draws their power from the sources of life and death, the Positive and Negative energy planes. It is their connection to these two primal forces, and how these forces meet within the druid, that grant them powers. They do not weave intricate spells through intellect and talent, nor do they force it into being by force of will - they intuit their way to the magic. they become one with the universe and let that unity, that balance, guide their magical abilities. They ride the swells of magic that flow through the universe, rather than control it.

The 4E warlord is so distinct from a spellcaster that I think it requires no explanation.

These underlying concepts have existed in my campaigns since the 80s (except the Warlord). They are all quite distinct to my long time players.

 

[Mind of tempest]

If you mean this, it could be a sign that you could benefit from speaking to a mental health professional. That is for you to determine. No need to share your thoughts on it with strangers on a web forum.
A wizard studies the arcane and bends magic to their will. They use their intellect to shape energies. They figure out magic, and make it theirs to command through study and intricate manipulation. They rely upon their intelligence and mental finesse.

A traditional cleric prays to the Gods. They give faith to those Gods, as a gift, and out of a sense of loyalty and duty. The God grant them power to allows them to further their duty and achieve great things in the service of the domains of the Gods. This is not truly an exchange ... it is the Gods allowing their allies better tools to achieve shared goals.

A Cleric of Ao (the Universe) in my homebrew appreciates the majesty of all that exists and offers their life in service to that eternity. The eternity, without thought or goal, offers them magic to further that service. It is even less of an exchange than the clerical service of clerics serving traditional Gods.

A bard doesn't study magic. It doesn't use intellect to bring about magic - it is a matter of their force of personality. They pull magic from the universe through sheer power of their charisma. This is a blunt profess, not one honed on intricacies or quite control... it is loud and proud. They sing and inspire with their magic, sharing the strength in their soul with others.

A druid in my campaign draws their power from the sources of life and death, the Positive and Negative energy planes. It is their connection to these two primal forces, and how these forces meet within the druid, that grant them powers. They do not weave intricate spells through intellect and talent, nor do they force it into being by force of will - they intuit their way to the magic. they become one with the universe and let that unity, that balance, guide their magical abilities. They ride the swells of magic that flow through the universe, rather than control it.

The 4E warlord is so distinct from a spellcaster that I think it requires no explanation.

These underlying concepts have existed in my campaigns since the 80s (except the Warlord). They are all quite distinct to my long time players.

look I do not get the concept of faith at all I can not imitate it as it does not register to me in any fashion, way ahead of you on the get looked at more the nobody no what would even work.

all divine caster starts to make sense if they work for a god's will or ends as otherwise why would you get powers?
a doubt anything could appreciate the majesty of all things as most things are rather terrible.

look I do not get how bards would work and I still do not get why they exist, to begin with, nor what they were an archetype from.

yeah, your druids sound super new age or something like that.

warlords sound like they should return but are not quite what I want.

is there logically room for a full caster in the primary support model which is not religious and does not have the same setting disruptions that dm level against artificers?