D&D General class consept question?

[Mind of tempest]

So, you've said it several times, and I presumed someone would have gotten to this by now, but they haven't. Barring that, I would have thought a simple Google search on the word would tell you what you need to know. Again, apparently not. So, here. You're welcome...

Bards are from ancient Celtic history & mythology: Irish, Welsh, Scottish, some from the Gaulish (old France/northwestern Europe). The most famous, generally cited, is a guy named Amergin. Another somewhat famous example, often conflated with stories/legends of the wizard of Arthurian myth, Merlin [I certainly hope you've "heard of him/know where he comes from?"], is a great magician/historian/druid, Taliesin.

They were historians/chroniclers, learned men, knowledgeable in all matters of lore and the laws of the men and lands among whom they lived. They served as diplomats/emissaries, judges, talented orators/speech givers, heralds and advisors of their kings, and initiated magician-priests, and, yes, inspirational warriors and/or battle-leaders/warlords of their peoples. They use wit, knowledge, and magic. Powers -as they usually do in Celtic legend- are closely tied to the natural world -calming seas, creating mists, calling forth the winds or plants to grow, and the like- and a smattering of transformation -altering one's appearance, turning into animals, etc... They are capable warriors, as all able-bodied people among these cultures are, but rely moreso on wit, often with cunning/trickery, and their supernatural abilities born of their abundant knowledge, years of training, and sometimes (as with all myth) some supernatural/semi-divine origin. Playing the harp is fairly ubiquitous (for celtic culture) -as it was a magical skill available only to the most learned and gifted (talented) of men.

A learned wandering guy with musical talent and a little knowledge about just about everything is merged in D&D (since 1e) with the medieval trope of the "wandering minstrel/troubador." So, the "magical musician" bard with a mandolin or lap harp, as a stringed instrument is almost always noted as a medeival instrument/music. This has burgeoned out to include pretty much any and all myth that includes music/instruments of all kinds: reeds/flutes/pipes (a la "Pan Pipes," the Pied Piper), percussion (a la shamanic drum circles), and brass/horns (the trumpets that fell the walls of Jericho from the Bible) trope of D&D was born and has solidified (not necessarily for the better, imho) over the editions. They are further mingled and broadened over editions with Scadanavian legend/culture of individuals known as "skalds."

Google Amergin and Taliesin..They will tell you everything you need to know about what a bard is supposed to be. More broadly, Irish and Welsh mythology/legends/ancient history.

they never teach this in school.

It sounds like you are looking for the Archivist. Which was basically just a wizard who used the cleric spell list (plus some extras, maybe). But, as other's have already pointed out, there are a slew of casters who already get access to those spell lists without having to be "divine." So it isn't exactly an unfilled niche.

I too agree that warlocks and clerics are a bit too close now thematically (and I believe sorcerers and warlocks should be merged into a more generic mage class), but I would like to point out that clerics do have something interesting going for them even now: A character can be forced to become a cleric. The player, of course, isn't being forced. But the character could start on the path of a cleric by having the god in question come down and basically press gang the character into service. A situation which turns the whole question of faith on it's head.

I will look into it.

Yes, but from what I have read, you just don't like any of the answers or don't understand them. Only you can know what you like, best just to re-fluff the magic of an existing class. If you understand what Wizards are, just say a Cleric is a Wizard that learned a to cast different magic, well differently. Now you have a healer with the full power of a Cleric and no need for religion or inherent spirituality.

I hate refluffing as what you got to get right is difficult and I have to bring everything in to get it to work, nothing to lean on no know short cuts it pull it off or fail plus you got to work against all the random bits of the intended flavour, it scares me.

If you're looking for an arrangement of classes that has a different metaphysical background than standard D&D, that's also fully coherent with itself and doesn't require reskinning, you're into deep, deep homebrew territory or just another system entirely.

Since you seem to have deeper cosmological concerns and trope consistency concerns, you're better off defining the cosmology you want to use first, and then start making classes to fit into that cosmology.

I might half too but that does not solve my problem of know if the thing could be?

 

[dave2008]

I hate refluffing as ...

Not surprising.

 

[dave2008]

I might half too but that does not solve my problem of know if the thing could be?

Please clarify as I can't make heads or tails of this response. How does making exactly what you want not solve your problem (other than having to do the work, which you stat you might have too - so that doesn't seem to be the issue). And I have no idea what you mean by: "...my problem of know if the thing could be?"

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree!

One of these days I'll sit down and work out a rough draft to present here of a more mythic Bard class.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Please clarify as I can't make heads or tails of this response. How does making exactly what you want not solve your problem (other than having to do the work, which you stat you might have too - so that doesn't seem to be the issue). And I have no idea what you mean by: "...my problem of know if the thing could be?"

if a none religious-based support caster with a completing thematic all its own.

One of these days I'll sit down and work out a rough draft to present here of a more mythic Bard class.

yes it is a good idea.

 

[dave2008]

if a none religious-based support caster with a completing thematic all its own.

Well since you don't like all of the options that already exist, you will have to make your own, that is how these things works. I will say that your requirements seem to be so specific that I think your going to have a hard time finding what your looking for from anyone but yourself.

 

[FrozenNorth]

They’re both arcane casters. They both study the weave and learn to manipulate it with sound and gesture. Bards just do it with musical flair.

Also with greater intelligence since they succeed at mastering more skills, more weapons, light armor and mastering three musical instruments in the time it takes the wizard to learn one additional cantrip and two additional 1st level spells.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also with greater intelligence since they succeed at mastering more skills, more weapons, light armor and mastering three musical instruments in the time it takes the wizard to learn one additional cantrip and two additional 1st level spells.

Well, and the ability to perform ritual spells without preparation, and the ability to keep learning spells all day while bards have only the ones they get by leveling.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Well since you don't like all of the options that already exist, you will have to make your own, that is how these things works. I will say that your requirements seem to be so specific that I think your going to have a hard time finding what your looking for from anyone but yourself.

true and I am terrible at making things, half of all homebrew classes I see are just one character concept not a real class idea, some could work for subclasses.

 

[Don Durito]

Honestly you can just call the Cleric a different tradition of sorcery at this point and have done. Most of them get some kind of wizard spells of some sort and there's so much crossover in spells across classes that conceptual differences are muddy anyway.