Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
3e started off intentionally unbalanced as part of its system mastery gatekeeping nonsense. Monte Cook intentionally poisoned the well from day one.
D&D (2024) Class Exclusive spells
- Thread starter Minigiant
- Start date
Corinnguard
Hero
How did Monte Cook intentionally poison the well?
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
He and the other designers, intentionally made certain options under/overpowered. Some were blatantly crappy, others deceptively bad trap options. The concept was "system mastery", where you'd learn to avoid the noob traps and pick the overpowered options as a reward for being a good little nerd and doing your homework (or just reading tier lists online). Cook later expressed that this was a bad idea (ya think?). For all the yowling about later unbalanced splats like the Book of 9 Swords (cute that people thought THAT was the problem), CODzilla was unleashed in the Player's Handbook. Hell, making the full attack a full round action meant that high level fighter types were jank without pounce. Then you had anti-synergy classes like the monk who had lots of attacks and mobility as a schtick in a system where you couldn't move and multi attack, so once again, great design there boys.
Vaalingrade
Legend
While that's not what 'poisoned the well' means, I think the better colloquialism would be 'sowed those seeds'.
Corinnguard
Hero
Before 5e, all playtesting to see if an option was under/overpowered was done internally. WoTC back then didn't come out and ask the D&D community as to what we thought about these options. They just had the designers make these options, put them into the various 3e products and expected to make a profit off of us.
Then 4e came out, it bombed, and WoTC finally got around to asking the D&D community for player feedback.
Then 4e came out, it bombed, and WoTC finally got around to asking the D&D community for player feedback.
Vaalingrade
Legend
4e was made based on player feedback across all 3e and Star wars SAGA edition.
It also didn't bomb, but was the target of a misinformation campaign that has continued to this day for some god forsaken reason.
Personally I'm okay with class exclusive spells. And I'm fine with auto magic spells known. I just don't like the ones chosen.
If it were up to me.
Sorcerer
Cantrips: Sorcerous Burst
1st: Chaos Bolt or Chromatic Orb
2nd: Ensorcell (a powerful charm or fear spell)
3rd: Sorcerous Expression (Gain one "superpower' for 24hrs like hover, claws, phasing, eyebeams)
4th: Sorcerous Vitality (a raw self heal and sorcery point regen)
5th: Arcane Eruption
6th: Mindfire (Temporarily know all Metamagics)
7th: Sorcery Incarnate (gain 2 superpowers and gain sorcery points)
8th Power Pinnacle (Sorcery points maximum is increased by 1d6 and Regain all sorcery points)
9th: Arcane Apotheosis (Cast any spell for the Arcane, Divine, or Primal spell list of 7th level or lower)
Wizard:
1st: Scribe Spell
2nd: Exploit Cantrip (Alter a Cantrips in your spellbook to roll maximum dice result once per short rest)
3rd: Memorize Spell (Swap a spell you have in your spellbook that you have prepared for another spell you have in a spellbook)
4th: Modify Spell (Alter a spell by increasing it's level by 1)
5th: Create Spell (Add a Modified Spell to your spellbook)
6th: Create Wand
7th: Duplicate Spellbook (create or retrieve a duplicate or a spellbook)
8th: Master Spell (Know 2 spells of 3rd or lower permanently and cast them at will)
If it were up to me.
Sorcerer
Cantrips: Sorcerous Burst
1st: Chaos Bolt or Chromatic Orb
2nd: Ensorcell (a powerful charm or fear spell)
3rd: Sorcerous Expression (Gain one "superpower' for 24hrs like hover, claws, phasing, eyebeams)
4th: Sorcerous Vitality (a raw self heal and sorcery point regen)
5th: Arcane Eruption
6th: Mindfire (Temporarily know all Metamagics)
7th: Sorcery Incarnate (gain 2 superpowers and gain sorcery points)
8th Power Pinnacle (Sorcery points maximum is increased by 1d6 and Regain all sorcery points)
9th: Arcane Apotheosis (Cast any spell for the Arcane, Divine, or Primal spell list of 7th level or lower)
Wizard:
1st: Scribe Spell
2nd: Exploit Cantrip (Alter a Cantrips in your spellbook to roll maximum dice result once per short rest)
3rd: Memorize Spell (Swap a spell you have in your spellbook that you have prepared for another spell you have in a spellbook)
4th: Modify Spell (Alter a spell by increasing it's level by 1)
5th: Create Spell (Add a Modified Spell to your spellbook)
6th: Create Wand
7th: Duplicate Spellbook (create or retrieve a duplicate or a spellbook)
8th: Master Spell (Know 2 spells of 3rd or lower permanently and cast them at will)
Hey that misinformation worked. People who started playing in 2016+ think 4e didn’t sell, and was a game where all the classes where spell casters… a year or two ago I had a kid (okay younger then me maybe not a kid) ask me if 4e was like Mage in WoD if everyone just played different apell casters
I don't mind class exclusive spells. But it... well, I don''t know how to feel about sorcerers and wizards getting their own Eldritch Blasts; feels like it makes them feel a bit homoginous. Though I suppose that's no different from the sorcerrs losing spontaneous magic angle too. Or expertise being an everyone thing, and not a rogue specific thing anymore.
I'm also not quite a fan of making it the mage group feature. Like... you can get Expertise through feats. Weapon Mastery is a feat. Channel Divnity is currently NOT a feat. By definition, class exclusive spells can't be a feat. It also suggests that other classes wouldn't get unique spells, like the bard. Actually, would it be a bad idea for bardic inspiration to be a spell instead of a wannabe-channel-divinity?
I don't mind warlocks getting EB and Hex, though it is curious that they don't get any more unique spells at higher levels like wizards and sorcerer do, though they are getting patron magic and that Contact spell at 11... Wizard ones are... weird. I mean, I don't mind Scribe, Memorize, Modify, Create being spells, but it has some very interesting connotations about how wizardry works that not everyone might like.
Sorcerer magic... honestly, other than it needing tweaking, its not bad. Sorcerous burst is pretty easy to fix - just make it either 2d4 or 2d6 melee range. Pull the random element from Chaos Bolt, roll 3d6; random element can be part of Wild Magic subclass that modifies the sorcerer unique spells. Vitality isn't a terrible idea, just undertuned - its a combo of a two lower level spells, but you rarely benefit from both at once and the amount healed is low. Incarnate is admittedly bad specifically as a spell, and Apothesis is OMG OP, but its not like the ideas aren't salvagable.
We can also change how Elemental Adapt works - instead of treating 1s as 2s (which is actively undesirable now for Eruption), we can change it so that it allows you to change the result of a die up or down by 1. This is, on the face of it, just a +1 damage boost, but for a sorcerer? Burst and Chaos Bolt will get extra damage riders more, Eruption will almost certainly get the condition you most desire.
The main problem with dragon sorcerer is that they're trying to be melee-ranged sorcerer without giving the right tools for it. We get extra AC and health, but no reason to ever be in melee until level 10; kind of why I like the idea of melee Burst. I would also change the dragon's elemental bonus from +CHA to +2d6, and go all in on the d6 rolling. Make dragon breath at 10 a shaped Eruption with free metamagics applied instead of a crappy Burst. Dragon wings need to emphasize the dragon sorcerer playstyle, not be a confusing mix of contrariness. Flyby sorcery attacks, maybe?
Got a bit off track there, but anyways.
TLDR: We can make unique spells work, and work well. Even sorcerer's. But not sure its appropriate as the Mage Group feature.
I'm also not quite a fan of making it the mage group feature. Like... you can get Expertise through feats. Weapon Mastery is a feat. Channel Divnity is currently NOT a feat. By definition, class exclusive spells can't be a feat. It also suggests that other classes wouldn't get unique spells, like the bard. Actually, would it be a bad idea for bardic inspiration to be a spell instead of a wannabe-channel-divinity?
I don't mind warlocks getting EB and Hex, though it is curious that they don't get any more unique spells at higher levels like wizards and sorcerer do, though they are getting patron magic and that Contact spell at 11... Wizard ones are... weird. I mean, I don't mind Scribe, Memorize, Modify, Create being spells, but it has some very interesting connotations about how wizardry works that not everyone might like.
Sorcerer magic... honestly, other than it needing tweaking, its not bad. Sorcerous burst is pretty easy to fix - just make it either 2d4 or 2d6 melee range. Pull the random element from Chaos Bolt, roll 3d6; random element can be part of Wild Magic subclass that modifies the sorcerer unique spells. Vitality isn't a terrible idea, just undertuned - its a combo of a two lower level spells, but you rarely benefit from both at once and the amount healed is low. Incarnate is admittedly bad specifically as a spell, and Apothesis is OMG OP, but its not like the ideas aren't salvagable.
We can also change how Elemental Adapt works - instead of treating 1s as 2s (which is actively undesirable now for Eruption), we can change it so that it allows you to change the result of a die up or down by 1. This is, on the face of it, just a +1 damage boost, but for a sorcerer? Burst and Chaos Bolt will get extra damage riders more, Eruption will almost certainly get the condition you most desire.
The main problem with dragon sorcerer is that they're trying to be melee-ranged sorcerer without giving the right tools for it. We get extra AC and health, but no reason to ever be in melee until level 10; kind of why I like the idea of melee Burst. I would also change the dragon's elemental bonus from +CHA to +2d6, and go all in on the d6 rolling. Make dragon breath at 10 a shaped Eruption with free metamagics applied instead of a crappy Burst. Dragon wings need to emphasize the dragon sorcerer playstyle, not be a confusing mix of contrariness. Flyby sorcery attacks, maybe?
Got a bit off track there, but anyways.
TLDR: We can make unique spells work, and work well. Even sorcerer's. But not sure its appropriate as the Mage Group feature.
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
Different spellcasting classes should be differentiated by different spells.
Otherwise, why not just have one class called, "Spellcaster."
thinking
YES! This makes sense. Instead of further differentiation, we need to simplify. I therefore propose the following classes-
1. A martial class. Someone who fights. I shall name them ... FIGHTING PERSON.
2. A spellcasting class. Someone who uses magic. I shall name them .... MAGIC USER.
3. A skill-based class. Someone who skulks and pickpockets and is generally good at other stuff. I shall name them ....THIE.... um .... SKILL BRAH. Okay, still working on that one.
Stay tuned for the release of Snarf's Omnibus Dungeons & Dragons. I'm sure I can think of an abbreviation for it.
Otherwise, why not just have one class called, "Spellcaster."
thinking
YES! This makes sense. Instead of further differentiation, we need to simplify. I therefore propose the following classes-
1. A martial class. Someone who fights. I shall name them ... FIGHTING PERSON.
2. A spellcasting class. Someone who uses magic. I shall name them .... MAGIC USER.
3. A skill-based class. Someone who skulks and pickpockets and is generally good at other stuff. I shall name them ....
Stay tuned for the release of Snarf's Omnibus Dungeons & Dragons. I'm sure I can think of an abbreviation for it.
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