Classes by primary stat

[Garthanos]

It's not about multiclassing, it's about character building. Multiclassing is one tool in character building, but not every tool for character building is about "shoring up multiclassing."
-Dan'L

Better term yes, melee training and skill powers are very useful tools for character building --- > especially when one wants abilities traditionally central from another class <---

This latter part is what associates it with multiclassing. Nothing wrong with "shoring up multiclassing"... it kind of felt like it needed help in providing the versatility element of character building. KD tends to over emphasize negatives sometimes in my opinion or expresses something not negative in a way easily taken as negative.
Hybrid rules and melee training and skill powers would have made character building far more versatile if they existed in phb1.

 

[Dan'L]

Right, and it's a very apt comparison... as any character can use scrolls for rituals, but only a Ritual Caster can master them.

It's not really so apt. This is like saying while any class can make an MBA, only a Ranger can Twin Strike. It would be an apter comparison to say that Skill Training: Arcana/Nature/Religion make for a more effective scroll user. That is, it takes something you can already do and lets you do it more effectively -- because that's really all Melee Training does.

But you'd hardly call someone without a ritual casting feat of one type or another a ritual caster, now would you?

No, but neither is "ritual caster" a class like Fighter. And while there are fewer classes that can effectively master and cast rituals than can effectively swing a sword, I would likely be just as hesitant to call out Ritual Caster as "shoring up multiclassing" as I am Melee Training.

-Dan'L

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry, I'm calling BS on this. Melee fighting is not a class ability, it is not definitive of a class nor it is not indicative of a unique class.

Effective melee fighting is a privilege of specific classes.


By your argument, I could claim that multiclassing itself is not multiclassing because any class can have the skill that the multiclassing feat gives. That skill is not unique to that class.

And even the special abilities are near worthless with respect to gaining a unique ability. Doing something once per day that someone else can do better 5 or 10 or more times per day? Doing something once per encounter that someone else can do better 5 or 10 or more times per encounter? And most of these are something that someone can basically do with a different class, it's just an ability with a different name (Sneak Attack vs. Hunter's Quarry, Healing Word vs. Inspiring Word vs. Majestic Word). The mechanics are slightly different, but the effect is basically the same.

That barely qualifies for the adjective "dabbling".

My argument is that this basically boils down to what many feats do. Gives a minor ability the PC did not already have and sometimes, it's something that other classes are typically better at.

There really is nothing that special about multiclassing over many other feats in this regard.

 

[Dan'L]

By your argument, I could claim that multiclassing itself is...

... a whole bunch of things that you've already claimed and asserted about multiclassing. Glad to see we're finally reaching some common ground.

-Dan'L

 

[KarinsDad]

... a whole bunch of things that you've already claimed and asserted about multiclassing. Glad to see we're finally reaching some common ground.

Whatever.

 

[Garthanos]

Multiclassing was the definition in previous editions of how people were able to broadly distinguish there characters enabling abilities that are features of other classes not there own. There are a number of feats that allow one to do that in 4e and you may want to use more than one. Yes KD didnt express that in a friendly way...

He could have said a number of feats now enable you to use abilities that are much the focus of other classes.

I would include "ritual caster", "melee training" and the various feats called "multiclassing feats" or even the feats for skill training.

The newest and most effective methods combine with the above Hybrid Class design and Skill powers.

They all support one another towards the end of having versatile custom characters without necessarily requiring scads of new classes.

At this point it feels like people are engaging in a "language use" argument...