Cleave: Give me room to work, my minions!

[DarkKestral]

While that's true, it is also true that just because you can create a problem, doesn't mean that a problem is really there.

Fitz

While that's true, just because you haven't ran into a situation where there is a problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist either. And that's the problem of the bag 'o rats. If there's a Greater Cleave type power which allows chaining, bag' o' rats is still an issue again, especially against large+ sized enemies that could potentially be adjacent to more than one of the opponents hit by the fighter. It's actually more of an issue, since minions are more likely in this edition, and the right mix can make it substantially better for the fighter to hit the minions (and wipe out a bunch of htem in a single go, ala a controller expending a per-encounter or daily power) than the big bad.

By the way, due to the way minion rules work, a far greater problem is this: This power, while it does decrease in power from 1-30, does not do so significantly, because anythign that does damage to a minion kills it, and this can do damage to minions. At level thirty, it means fighters can knock down two adjacent minions at will just like it does at level one, because one hit is a kill. And depending on the way dual-wielding works, it can also mean that he could knock down 4 in a single turn without expending any per-encounter or per-day resources. Since minions are worth 1/2 a player, afaik, that means he can knock out a player equivalent or 2 a round without "effort", as long as he hits. Therefore, unless minions have ACs high enough that he misses on a regular basis (at least 1/2 the time or so, i'd say) he'll be better as a striker versus a minion than many of the strikers, if the strikers can only attack one minion per round (which is likely under most circumstances, as the role seems to be single-target DPS) rather than a large quantity.

 

[Chimera]

I try to envision Cleave as one powerful swing of the weapon that shatters the body of the first opponent then hits the second blindly on the follow through.

I like 3e Cleave, and it makes sense to me. The sword/axe/giant sporc rips across the creature's chest/thorax/hufflemugger, knocking it backwards even as it kills it, or just plain chops off a limb, and the weapon continues in an arc to hit the next opponent.

The new one, not so much.

But then again, I like iterative attacks that allow me to attack multiple opponents too. Without a huge feat chain to make happen.

 

[Imp]

I'm not sure what the point of 4E cleave is, except to metagame whether you're up against minion-class monsters or not. "Ooh, I took down two! Minions, people!"

 

[Nahat Anoj]

It's worth nothing that all it would take to address Ainatan's concern would be '3 damage to an adjacent enemy whose AC would be hit by your attack' or some similar verbiage. It's not much of a stretch.

QFT.

I really like the 4e Cleave as is. Simple, too the point, and it doesn't suck.

 

[small pumpkin man]

I'm not sure what the point of 4E cleave is, except to metagame whether you're up against minion-class monsters or not. "Ooh, I took down two! Minions, people!"

The point is obviosly to attack multiple creatures at the same time, what else would it be?

And Vampire Spawn, which are 6th level Minions, have 10 hp, I think most 6th level fighters would have trouble doing that much damage with cleave.

 

[Imp]

It's not much of a point.

As for minion-class monsters, I'm talking about the monsters set up to drop whenever PCs damage them. Has that changed?

 

[Hussar]

At level thirty, it means fighters can knock down two adjacent minions at will just like it does at level one, because one hit is a kill.

Just to point out that this has not been confirmed. The Vampire Spawn Minion had 10 Hp, for example, so, it may not be cleavable.

This is another case where we will have to wait and see the final product before we can come to any hard conclusions.

 

[DarkKestral]

Just to point out that this has not been confirmed. The Vampire Spawn Minion had 10 Hp, for example, so, it may not be cleavable.

This is another case where we will have to wait and see the final product before we can come to any hard conclusions.

True. But if it is as I've heard rumored that one hit is a kill, then it will be "bag o' rats" broken again, but not in the original way. A level 1 power should not be better than one received 20 levels and 2 tiers later.

 

[small pumpkin man]

It's not much of a point.

Yes it is.

As for minion-class monsters, I'm talking about the monsters set up to drop whenever PCs damage them. Has that changed?

Minions are a type of monster set up so that four of them equals one normal monster, that is the definition of what they are. While the first level minions we've seen die when they take damage, the higher level ones we've seen do not, the speculation that all minions have one hp remains just that, speculation.

I recomend taking more care with what you believe from secondary and tertiary sources.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I think we've been told minions have HP.

Maybe we haven't.

Regardless, I think a 1st level fighter ability that completely breaks "minions" is something Wizards is capable of balancing. This is not some intricate combo, it's a first level ability.

Don't sweat it.