Combat Cleric

[GakToid]

Thanks for all of the great advice. A couple comments...

1) Does the fact that the next DM will be running "City of the Spider Queen" alter any of your suggestions?

2) Is quicken spell worth it? At +4 spells levels, it seems like a really high price to pay. Example: Quickened Divine Favor vs Righteous Might

3) I'll have to ask about persistent. I know one player thinks it's horribly overpowered, but he's not DMing next.

4) Torm doesn't have war as one of his domains, so I'd have to spend a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency(greatsword). Most of the deities with the war domain have either the longsword or battleaxe as their favored weapon. Haela Brightaxe is the only FR deity that has a two-handed weapon as their favored weapon.

5) After reviewing some of the suggestions, I'm thinking I'll probably try to balance melee combat and spell casting. Relying on a +Wis item just so I can cast spells just strikes me as...wrong.

-Gak Toid

 

[Targos]

If the Mulhorandi Patheon is permitted go with Anhur. The falchion is a 2 handed weapon and Anhur has good domains for a melee cleric. Power attacking with a good threat range quickly makes up for the lower damage die on a large weapon. Once you can enchant armor I'd suggest a buckler. Before that it might not be worth the hit penalty. You might want the strength domain. 3.5 enlarge person grants reach now. Otherwise the good domain is good for crafting holy weapons. (but not much else in my opinion)

 

[Numion]

Thanks for all of the great advice. A couple comments...

1) Does the fact that the next DM will be running "City of the Spider Queen" alter any of your suggestions?

Not really. Playing a cleric is your best bet in making out of that one alive.

2) Is quicken spell worth it? At +4 spells levels, it seems like a really high price to pay. Example: Quickened Divine Favor vs Righteous Might

If you can't get persistant spell quicken really is useful. My cleric used it constantly .. it can amount to quite a lot of damage in higher levels. (Not only does it add damage directly, but it will also turn some of your would-be misses into hits).

5) After reviewing some of the suggestions, I'm thinking I'll probably try to balance melee combat and spell casting. Relying on a +Wis item just so I can cast spells just strikes me as...wrong.

You can go that way too. But it's nice to play a tricked out combat cleric. I wouldn't sweat about WIS that much .. mostly your spells will be spent in boosting yourself anyway, so DCs aren't important. Ref save isn't important, BTW, because you can always have 3-5 protection from elements spells.

If you had no restrictions in domains, Planning and War would be my choices. Planning gives you a free feat (a prerequisite for Persistant Spell, at that!) and Time Stop at 9th level and War is also useful for that one feat. Then you could always play a human an get spellcasting prodigy if you're worried about the WIS.

 

[0-hr]

If you can convince your DM that your shield is a blunt, wooden weapon, then cast Spikes on it and use the Shield Charge thing from DoF. Add in some Rhino Hide and you have all kinds of fun going on. +10 damage, doubled twice on a charge ain't bad (in addition to your strength, power attack, etc. etc.) and it leaves your other hand free for casting spells.

 

[Darklone]

If you don't get the Weapon Proficiency for a big bad evil weapon with your domain, take one level barbarian. Had some bbn1/cleric (sometimes halforc) dudes around... they got obscene strength scores. Compared to the other melee cleric in the group, they needed less buff spells, had a nice hitpoint boost in level 1 and didn't suffer from the one level spellcasting too badly.

 

[two]

Don't freak dude.

Don't sweat the low wisdom thing, dude!

What does a cleric need a high wisdom for?

a) bonus spells
b) spell DC
c) increases will save

Bonus spells are not that big a deal. Spell DC is immaterial, really, why cast a spell with a save when you can do far more damage just whacking the heck out of it? Or cast no-save attack spells, such as the sommon monsters.

Cleric's will saves are already great, particularly if you play a Dwarf.

Honestly, 14 is plenty at level 1. Buy 2 "X's of +2 to Wisdom" (one backup) and you have a Wisdom=16 by 10th level, can cast 6th level spells, and what's the big deal?

Save your point buy points for con and strength, save your 4th/8th bumps for strength.

Munchtastic dwarf melee cleric might be:

Str:17 (13 points)
Con:16 (10 points+2 race)=18
Dex:10 (2 points)
Wis:14 (6 points)
Int:8
Ch:9 (1 point -2 race)=7

By level 10, with 4 +2 boost items, the Wis=16, dex=12, str=21, con=20 (put both increases into strength). At level 12 make strength even (22).

What more does a tank want? Full Plate, buff spells, persistant if you can swing it, done. Top-notch hit points, steller fort/will saves, great AC (with buffs up), excellent damage output (with buffs).

You can't turn undead very well, so just whack 'em.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Don't sweat the low wisdom thing, dude!

What does a cleric need a high wisdom for?

a) bonus spells
b) spell DC
c) increases will save

Bonus spells are not that big a deal.

I disagree with this part of your argument. There's a huge difference between having one fourth level spell+1 domain spell and having 2+domain spell at 7th level, and bonus 5th and 6th level spells make a huge difference as well.

A big part of the combat cleric schtick is the use of high level buff spells (Divine Power, Righteous Might, Persistent/Quickened Divine Favor, Quickened Shield of Faith, etc). A cleric with a low wisdom will find that he is quite hampered in his ability to do this. An extra Righteous Might per day (Or the ability to have both Righteous Might AND quickened/Persistent Divine Favor active at once at 9th level) is more valuable than an extra two points of strength. At 11th level, it's very nice not to have to choose between Hero's Feast and Harm or Heal. Etc.

A combat cleric who neglects wisdom will be more effective at low levels when the buff spells really aren't that good (compared to the strength score) and the 12 or 14 wisdom doesn't effect much more than spell DCs and will saves. At high levels, when his buff spells make more difference than his initial scores, however, the cleric who dumped wisdom in favor of strength or constitution will suffer.

 

[two]

good point

I disagree with this part of your argument. There's a huge difference between having one fourth level spell+1 domain spell and having 2+domain spell at 7th level, and bonus 5th and 6th level spells make a huge difference as well.

A big part of the combat cleric schtick is the use of high level buff spells (Divine Power, Righteous Might, Persistent/Quickened Divine Favor, Quickened Shield of Faith, etc). A cleric with a low wisdom will find that he is quite hampered in his ability to do this. An extra Righteous Might per day (Or the ability to have both Righteous Might AND quickened/Persistent Divine Favor active at once at 9th level) is more valuable than an extra two points of strength. At 11th level, it's very nice not to have to choose between Hero's Feast and Harm or Heal. Etc.

A combat cleric who neglects wisdom will be more effective at low levels when the buff spells really aren't that good (compared to the strength score) and the 12 or 14 wisdom doesn't effect much more than spell DCs and will saves. At high levels, when his buff spells make more difference than his initial scores, however, the cleric who dumped wisdom in favor of strength or constitution will suffer.

Good point -- the bonus spells will make a difference, probably more than a minor strength boost...I'd say shoot for Wisdom=18 by level 10, that's good enough, you don't miss out on much.

So modified point buy gives Str=16, Wis=16, Con=16, 2 to spare. After Dwarvosity is applied, it's 16/16/18. By level 10, with 3 +2 buff items and 2 powerups into Con, you have 18/18/22, which makes for a hard hitter, good spells and bonus spells, and superb hit points. Your will save is great, your fort save outlandish, your survivability very high. Grab the luck domain for a free reroll of freakish poor save rolls, and get 'em.

 

[GakToid]

3 more questions:

1) I'm realizing that a bunch of spells that clerics cast don't stack with magic items:
Shield of Faith -vs.- Ring of Protection
Bull’s Strength -vs.- Divine Power -vs.- Belt of Giant Strength
Bear’s Endurance: -vs.- Amulet of Health

Do you feel it's better to rely on the spells or the items?
Divine Power is obviously superior to Bull's Strength or a Belt of Strength, but what about Shield of Faith and Bear's Endurance?
Are there other cleric spells that can be duplicated with items? (Assuming that I can't create any item I want.)

Our campaign follows the DMG wealth levels.



2) Is Persistent Spell worth it? Compare it to Quicken Spell:
a) Both cost +4 spell levels [even]
b) Persistent requires Extend [win Quicken]
c) All spells can be quickened [win Quicken]

Only the following spells can be made Persistent:
Level 0: (7th level cleric)
Detect Magic
Read Magic

Level 1: (9th level cleric)
Bane
Bless
Comprehend Languages
Deathwatch
Detect Evil
Detect Undead
Divine Favor
Entropic Shield
Obscuring Mist

Level 2: (11th level cleric)
Find Traps

Level 3: (13th level cleric)
Helping Hand
Invisibility Purge
Meld into Stone
Prayer
Speak with Dead

Level 4: (15th level cleric)
Divine Power
Freedom of Movement
Repel Vermin

Level 5: (17th level cleric)
Commune
Righteous Might

At 15th level you can have Divine Power, Divine Favor, Bless, and Entropic Shield running all day. However, we start at 10th. I may not live to 15th level. Perhaps it's better to rely on a quicken Divine Favor to get me into combat quickly.


3) What are people's favorite spells for a melee cleric?

Thanks for you help.

-Gak Toid

 

[James McMurray]

Given DMG wealth levels, you're better off using Shield of Faith for deflection bonuses because of its longer duration. The Animal buffs are only 1 minute per level though, meaning they require combat actions to activate a good majority of the time. Those are actions that would be better served attacking or healing.

Persistent vs. Quicken: I prefer persistent because of the resources it saves you. You can eiter spend 3 5th level slots for three fights of quick Divine Favor, or one with persistent. Also, extend is not a bad metamagic by any means, and so isn't really a major loss for persistent. Of ourse, you cold always get both by 15th level if you wanted to.

Spells: If you are a good guy, check out the book of Exalted Deeds. There are several very nice spells in there for a combat cleric, including Sunmantle, Luminous Armor, and Starantle.