Complete Arcane: Too Much Wu-Jen?!?

[Kae'Yoss]

I kind of wish they had a little MORE info on the wu-jen. Like, what are these spirits that Wu-jens deal with? Regular ghosts?

There are about the same spirits as those the Spirit Shaman deals with. We're talking about animism here: Everything, from a mighty mountain to a tiny pebble, from a flame to a river to a tree to a land, has a spirit associated with it. It's common in wuxia.

Also, I'd like more info on Warlock invocations, like durations, save vs. nausea when you are a swarm of bats, whether hideous blow draws an aoo (and whether it does when mixed with vitriolic blast), confirmation that a souped up eldritch blast can be cast in one round, not three rounds, etc.

My take on it: The durations are those of the spells they imitate. Often, as with meta-blast stuff, they're instantaneous.

Hideous Blow should draw an AoO, subject to cast defensively.

Eldritch Essense and Blast Shape are "meta-blast" - like meta-breath spells. They don't "charge" the eldritch blast, they alter it. So it's the same time as an eldritch blast.

It's only too much focus if you don't want to play and/or don't like the Wu-Jen; if you do, then you're probably thankful that you have a fully fleshed-out spell list that has it's own flavor and doesn't require you to buy OA or d20 Rokugon.

BTW: Rokugan wouldn't help you there, as it doesn't have Wu Jen. Shugenja all the way (well, except Sorcerers, who are usually Maho-Tsukai - Blood Witches).

I think a lot of those Wu-Jen only spells belong to other lists as well. I see many wizard spells there, a lot of druid stuff, and some of those are suitable for other classes, as well.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd imagine that if the Warlock's incantations were included in the spells section as spells, people would be upset because there seemed to be too many of them as well...

I doubt it. The warlock is something truely new - wizards aren't going to look at the incantations and say "hey, that's an interesting and balanced spell". They'll think "What the? Oh, an incantation. Phew, I was worried there".

Whereas wujen spells are balanced with regular spells and a lot of them are very cool. If you're an arcane caster, or someone else looking for useable spells, it's really disappointing to find a cool spell and then go "crud. It's a wujen spell. Stupid wujen."

And when there's maybe 4 or 5 good spells in the list that AREN'T wujen spells, you're probably justified in being annoyed.

FWIW I looked through Complete Arcane and was also put off by the emphasis on Wu-Jen. It is not as if an equivalent proportion of feats in Complete Warrior were Samurai-only, is it?

Zigactly. There's basically no reason that every wujen-only spell could not have been given to an already existing core class. Except then the wujen would be totally pointless.

If you ask me, a class that relies on an unusual spell list to have a point is a cruddy class.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I don't like the Wu-jen. Too similar to a Wizard.

I'd have most of the Wu-jen spells be Wizard/Sorceror spells, and maybe have Spell Secret as a feat.

Geoff.

 

[Talmun]

FWIW I looked through Complete Arcane and was also put off by the emphasis on Wu-Jen. It is not as if an equivalent proportion of feats in Complete Warrior were Samurai-only, is it?

Not sure that is an apt analogy...feats, by their nature, are open to a much wider array of classes, while spells are generally restricted to one or two spell lists. Additionally, adding a new casting class is inherently more complex than adding a melee one, particularly if the class has it's own spells and spell list.

While I admit that a great many of the Wu-Jen spells should have been labeled as sor/wiz (or other classes), I hardly find that off-putting, it's not as if it makes the spells unusable; in fact, many of the Wu-Jen spells are quite good.

Someone mentioned that their gaming group also disliked the WJ and it's presence in the book; as a counter-point, both of the groups I game with were strongly positive about the class, it's spells and the book in general.

...to each his own, I guess...

 

[Talmun]

BTW: Rokugan wouldn't help you there, as it doesn't have Wu Jen. Shugenja all the way (well, except Sorcerers, who are usually Maho-Tsukai - Blood Witches).

Absolutely right, thanks for the correction.

 

[Saeviomagy]

While I admit that a great many of the Wu-Jen spells should have been labeled as sor/wiz (or other classes), I hardly find that off-putting, it's not as if it makes the spells unusable; in fact, many of the Wu-Jen spells are quite good.

Well, it DOES make them unusable. A DM has to go through and decide which ones are appropriate for what class. If they'd simply been added to the appropriate classes in the first place, half the spells section wouldn't be a total waste for anyone who, like me, sees the wujen as "a wizard, but with a bit of oriental flavour".

Someone mentioned that their gaming group also disliked the WJ and it's presence in the book; as a counter-point, both of the groups I game with were strongly positive about the class, it's spells and the book in general.

At a guess, the difference is that one half are interested in taking levels in wujen, and the other half wanted new stuff for existing sorcerors and wizards.

 

[Talmun]

Well, it DOES make them unusable. A DM has to go through and decide which ones are appropriate for what class...

While I certainly see your point (as I mentioned somewhere upthread), it's not something that bothers me to any great extent, and I can see why WoTC might want to keep those spells unique and special to one class. In other words, IMHO, it's a minor quibble that hardly ruins the book.

As to the groups I'm in liking the book, AFAIK, no one is planning on playing a WJ, but the spells will probably show up on someone's spell list (NPC's first, most likely).

 

[frankthedm]

There are about the same spirits as those the Spirit Shaman deals with. We're talking about animism here: Everything, from a mighty mountain to a tiny pebble, from a flame to a river to a tree to a land, has a spirit associated with it. It's common in wuxia.

But they should still be statted out like all other parts of d20. Demons, angels, Gods, elementals etc get stats and are slayable in d20, and so should animistic spirits. Incoporeal Fey with cold iron DR should be about right,or "dryad" like Kami that are linked to thier place of potency, rather than just an oak tree.

 

[arscott]

look at it this way: If you looked through the PHB spell list, would you thing "hey, why are all the spells in here wizard and cleric spells. the ranger and druid really got shafted"?

There are three core classes presented in the book, and it wouldn't be fair unless the book provided support for those three classes. So if the classes were mechanically similar, it would be reasonable to expect that better portion of the spells in the book were divided between the three classes.

But the classes aren't mechanically similar. The warmage has an intentionally limited list of spells. Including a bunch of new warmage spells in CA would be as ridiculous as having the Paladin's spells in the PHB be as numerous as the wizard's. And the Warlock doesn't cast spells at all. That leaves the Wu Jen, who therefore ought to have a large portion of the book's spells devoted to it, as is in fact the case.

The wu jen needs it's own spell list with its own flavor. If not, there's very little point in having the class at all. Several posts here have already alluded to the fact that a wu jen isn't much more than a flavorful wizard. And if all of those Wu Jen only spells were available to wizards and sorcerors, what would be the point of playing a wu jen at all?

If I ever run a campaign without clerics and druids, then I'm going to make damn sure that wizards have access to the healing spells. But if my campaign does have clerics and druids, allowing the wizards to access healing magic would be downright stupid. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with allowing wizards and the occasional druid to cast wu jen spells in a wu jenless campaign, but that's not a reason to mark all of the wu jen spells as Wiz/Sor.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

But they should still be statted out like all other parts of d20. Demons, angels, Gods, elementals etc get stats and are slayable in d20, and so should animistic spirits. Incoporeal Fey with cold iron DR should be about right,or "dryad" like Kami that are linked to thier place of potency, rather than just an oak tree.

There's more details for the specifics of Spirits in OA. Off the top of my head, I remember that Fey, Outsiders, and a few other creatures qualify as the Spirit Type.