Complete Arcane: Too Much Wu-Jen?!?

[Mr. Kaze]

FWIW I looked through Complete Arcane and was also put off by the emphasis on Wu-Jen. It is not as if an equivalent proportion of feats in Complete Warrior were Samurai-only, is it?

No, but there was an awful lot of Monk stuff in there.

FWIW, Oriental Adventures includes Wu Jen to the exclusion of Wizards (in the same way it includes a very nifty Shaman class to the exclusion of Clerics and Druids) which is why they're awfully similar. Personally, I don't think that lifting themed material at dropping it in splatbooks is a good practice as it strikes me as destructive to the cohesiveness of the storytelling, but I prefer people being creative with their characters more than with their reasons for adventuring together, too.

Regardless, since I own OA, I wasn't too impressed by the shameless reprinting (or, for the samurai, desecration) of material for any of the Complete books thusfar. <clue to="WotC">It's very specifically a non-selling point, guys!</clue>

Does make me wonder what WotC is going to do with the last Complete book -- I don't think they've got any more base classes to rip off from Oriental Adventures and precious few prestige classes, too.

Cheers,
::Kaze

 

[bluegodjanus]

I don't see it as a problem. This is like complaining that the PHB has too many druid-only spells. You don't play a cleric and flip through the book thinking 'Damn, another druid spell!', do you?

 

[Terraism]

I don't see it as a problem. This is like complaining that the PHB has too many druid-only spells. You don't play a cleric and flip through the book thinking 'Damn, another druid spell!', do you?

No, but the druid is a core class, and this is an accessory book to the core classes first and foremost. I think many people view the new base classses in the Complete series as a bonus, but not the main focus - and, thus, when one of them is the main focus, it's irritating for people who bought the book looking for ways to expand their core-classed (sorcerer or wizard) character.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Exactly!

 

[beaver1024]

No, but the druid is a core class, and this is an accessory book to the core classes first and foremost. I think many people view the new base classses in the Complete series as a bonus, but not the main focus - and, thus, when one of them is the main focus, it's irritating for people who bought the book looking for ways to expand their core-classed (sorcerer or wizard) character.

Agreed. Putting in crappy Draconic feats as an afterthought doesn't help the impression either.

 

[Kesh]

My only complaint is that now it's unlikely we'll see the Wu Jen in the SRD. I was really wanting that.

 

[Trainz]

Agreed. Putting in crappy Draconic feats as an afterthought doesn't help the impression either.

We allow our characters to retroactively change stuff on their PC's when a new book comes out.

I play a sorceror, and slapped 3 draconic feats on him. I am madly in love with them. I feel they were just what the sorceror needed to actually make him feel whole, as per the sorceror concept.

So I guess they ain't crappy for everyone.

 

[Saeviomagy]

look at it this way: If you looked through the PHB spell list, would you thing "hey, why are all the spells in here wizard and cleric spells. the ranger and druid really got shafted"?

If the ranger and druid were supposed to be full-casting classes, then yes. But they're not.

There are three core classes presented in the book, and it wouldn't be fair unless the book provided support for those three classes. So if the classes were mechanically similar, it would be reasonable to expect that better portion of the spells in the book were divided between the three classes.

True, but there's support and theres "all the good spells belong to them".

But the classes aren't mechanically similar. The warmage has an intentionally limited list of spells. Including a bunch of new warmage spells in CA would be as ridiculous as having the Paladin's spells in the PHB be as numerous as the wizard's. And the Warlock doesn't cast spells at all. That leaves the Wu Jen, who therefore ought to have a large portion of the book's spells devoted to it, as is in fact the case.

The wu jen needs it's own spell list with its own flavor. If not, there's very little point in having the class at all. Several posts here have already alluded to the fact that a wu jen isn't much more than a flavorful wizard. And if all of those Wu Jen only spells were available to wizards and sorcerors, what would be the point of playing a wu jen at all?

So you're saying that throwing good money after bad is a good idea? "The wujen concept is flimsy and weak, providing little mechanical difference to wizards, so lets give them a bunch of unique spells to try to fix that." Is that what you're saying?

This is really flawed reasoning. The smart solution would be to say "well, if they're that bad, lets turn them into a footnote in the campaigns section and leave it at that - chuck the spells where they fit".

If I ever run a campaign without clerics and druids, then I'm going to make damn sure that wizards have access to the healing spells. But if my campaign does have clerics and druids, allowing the wizards to access healing magic would be downright stupid.

I've met plenty of cleric players who think otherwise.

Likewise, there's nothing wrong with allowing wizards and the occasional druid to cast wu jen spells in a wu jenless campaign, but that's not a reason to mark all of the wu jen spells as Wiz/Sor.

No, but it is good enough reason to mark them as whatever class they're appropriate for. That stops them being wasted space in a non-wujen campaign.

 

[Trainz]

As for the wu jen spells: as per the RAW, most of these spells CAN be wizard spells.

Remember: a wizard can create new spells. They just can't act as cures as efficient as a cleric's cure spells.

So it's quite reasonable to allow a PC wizard to "invent" those spells. The DM doesn't even need to figure out the power level, that job has already been taken care of. The only thing he must determine is if he want's to introduce any given spell in his campaign (but really, the same goes for core spells).

 

[Moorcrys]

Not to perpetuate a fight, or to start one, because while I found it odd about the wu-jen it didn't ruin my experience with the book... but if you're looking for other things that I think could have filled the book out -- how about a section on adjudicating illusions... that seems to come up a lot on these boards with a hundred different opinions. How about some alternate summoning lists? Or some advice on how to create a balanced one yourself? If you're going to have class-specific spells outside of core, how about specialist-restricted spells? There's an idea. How about expanded domains or more quirky specialist options like those found in Unearthed Arcana? Why not run with the sorcerer-specific feats and expand on those?

Just a few options, but I think a couple of them would have been well-placed in a book like this.