Concerning Feats

Drunkonduty,
I think I understand your point pretty well. If my gaming was not so reliable, I'd be plenty happy if I got a few more feats for free at lower levels, but my group is consistent and we've been running the current campaign for 2+ years now (?!?!?! Holy crap, that's long for us) with sessions every week or two depending on schedules. This means that characters do actually reach higher level and can gain those feats they really want to make a cool concept. I think this is my problem with the 4E rules; all the characters are instantly able to do a bunch of awesome stuff, which kind of takes away from gaining cool powers as you go up levels. Sure, it means the characters might have a higher survival rate at lower levels, but I think a good part of the fun my group and I have is pulling off the absurd stunts they're prone to despite being low level. At this point they're epic though, so things are getting more and more absurd at an exponential rate.
 

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Angrydad writes:
At this point they're epic though, so things are getting more and more absurd at an exponential rate.

LOL. Yeah my campaign has just hit 14th and I'm finding it harder and harder to keep things going along without excessive wuxia and super powers derailing things. But this is a well known problem with 3.x so I won't labour it here.

I do know what you mean about the excitement of just trying to survive those first few levels. My personal preference for play is 1st to 3rd. I LIKE peering around a corner and seeing a pair of goblin guards and thinking 'Holy crap, TWO of them!' It's the best part of the game for me.

What I had in mind for the extra feats (basically ripping off old 1e Oriental Adventures martial arts styles and 7th Sea PrC's) was to allow for variety of play in combat, by making (for instance) parrying and movement more worthwhile/achievable. And by having styles with a list of feats (that could only be learnt by studying that style) I would give the players something to strive for.

Also I had in mind something I read here on the ENWorld forums that went basically like: not all feats are equal. Which is very true. So I thought that by increasing the supply of feats I would drop the 'real cost' of them, thereby reducing the opportunity cost of taking a less powerful one. Does that make sense?
 

Edena:
D'Artagnon hey? In 20 levels? Easy peasy. Just from Core books:
Weapon Finesse, Focus and Specialisation; Endurance (he got from Paris to London and back again in record time to warn the Duke of Buckingham of M'Lady's evil plans); Improved Parry; Dodge; Mobility; Combat Reflexes; maybe some skill focus for things like Tumbling or Bluff and Seduction. You could have everything except the skill focus by 8th level as a human fighter. Sure there's all sorts of things you could give him, but really, that's enough. He wasn't super human, just damn good and very tenacious.

Hey there, DrunkonDuty. Nice to meet you! : )
I'm a bit vague on D'Artagnon. From the film versions, I remember:

He definitely had Endurance. (Which shows that Endurance is a cool rping feat.)
Weapon Finesse, Focus, and Specialization - Fencing weapons? (What weapon was that he was using, exactly?)
I agree with the Improved Parry, Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflexes. Basically, I agree with you totally.

(tries to remember)

He could ride a horse and fire a gun. I think he could duel on horseback. Shouldn't we give him Mounted Combat?
Also, shouldn't he have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms?

D'Artagnon could perform a lot of acrobatics. I guess that would be covered under skills ...

Hmmm ...
 

Nice to meet you too, Edena.

Truth be told, in DnD a character is hard to model in any sort of reasonable way. The system is one of broad strokes rather than fine detail. Any character from literature is going to require so many levels just to express certain competencies it's not funny. You just have to model the main bits and leave the rest to circumstances. For instance:

Does D'Artagnon require mounted combat? No. I'm sure he's fought on horse back but he doesn't have to have a feat to do that. With a feat he's better at doing it but a feat isn't required. (I'd have to check the mounted combat rules to find out exactly what he's missing out on but generally speaking he'd still be quite competent.)

I guess I think of feats as representing special training/focus for the character. With a feat a character has more skill at something than an otherwise equal character without the feat. The other character might still be pretty handy. Of course with more feats, and specifically weaker feats, it's possible to give characters greater granularity. If each feat represents only a small increment in power increase or a bonus in particular circumstances then you have a reward/level increase system but not have to have the campaign go from 'peasants and kobolds' to 'fighting the gods.' Of course if you want to do that then more power to you! It's all a matter of taste after all.
 

I think you have the right of it, DrunkonDuty.
I just experiment, seeing if I can - in general - create characters from films and books using the feats and skills presented.
It's just for the heck of it, really.

I remember the cavalier from 1E. He was a pretty capable fellow.
Let's see if I can build a competent cavalier here (say, 10th level, something akin to what we sometimes see in the books.) Forget the limits on feats: let's just give this guy all the appropriate feats for a really skilled cavalier.

My take?

Let's start with the Player's Handbook.

He's got the fighter feats of Armor Proficiency Light, Armor Proficiency Medium, Armor Proficiency Heavy, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficency, and Martial Weapon Proficiency (3E assumes fighters have MWP, so the cavalier would have it also.)

Now, what else would he have? I would grant him Alertness. If he has no squire, he must put his own armor on (somehow), and he must sense danger in time to react. No squire is going to do the fighting for him, while he dons his armor (as I have heard sometimes happened historically.)
I'd give him Combat Reflexes. He is a skilled fighter, well trained and able to take advantage of unready opponents. It is not always a matter of dishonor to make Attacks of Opportunity (such as, at cowardly knaves fleeing from honest combat, or the cowardly bowman attempting to shoot at him.)
I'd give him Dodge. It represents fighter training, skills, and instincts that have been honed finely in battle. (Mobility is iffy. He might have it. He would not have Spring Attack, since that is dishonorable.)
I'd give him Great Fortitude. Cavalier training is grueling. Marching, riding, and fighting in armor is grueling. And this person is supposed to be really good at these things, something really special. (He's no match for the Big, Bad, Barbarian in fortitude, but he is still hardy.)
I'd give him Improved Initiative. He has run into too many cowardly knaves, rogues, and wizards. He knows he must act quickly, and has intensively practiced quick reactions and decision-making.
I'd give him Leadership. He is a cavalier, and he aspires to the Nobility of the Realm.
I'd give him Mounted Combat. This is to faciliate other feats in this chain.
He also has Trample, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge. (But not Mounted Archery, ala the Rohirrim. He is Man of Honor, and desires above all to give his opponents hand to hand combat.)
He has Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave, as a person who specializes in melee combat. (He does not have Sunder: he expects an opponent to surrender and drop their weapons, or fight the good fight. He does not have Bull Rush or Improved Bull Rush - he's a warrior on horseback, not a charging Barbarian!)
He has Quick Draw. He has mastered the art of getting his long sword out of that sheath in an instant, or readying his lance quickly.
He has Skill Focus - Riding. (and possibly other skills.)
He has Toughness (once.) This is a hardy fellow (as per the 1E Unearthed Arcana.)

Has a look in the Complete Warrior

I'd give him Close Quarters Fighting. Enemies will have previously tried grappling, and this fellow is an expert in hand to hand combat. (Indeed, that's what he wants above all else, is honorable hand to hand combat - he sneers at grappling, and has prepared himself against those who would do so.)
I'd give him Eyes in the Back of your Head. He is stuck wearing a helm. Always has been. He needs this feat to counter the blindness helms confer.
I'd give him Hold the Line. He is an expert against those charging Barbarians, a bulwark of defense for his side.
If the cavalier has a long history of protecting friends, I'd give him Improve Combat Expertise: he has had to fight retreating battles against superior opponents, while his downed friends were carried off the battlefield.
If - and only if - the cavalier was a real shield prodigy, I'd give him Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam.

Looks in the Complete Adventurer

I'd give our cavalier Combat Intuition. He has learned to anticipate the foe's moves (and the hidden motives of knavish, dishonorable opponents.)
I'd also give him Danger Sense. Again, he's been attacked in the night by rogues and knaves and monsters, and has no squire to protect him.
He is a leader, this cavalier, an inspiration, and so he has Expert Tactician.
Were he a cavalier-paladin, he'd have Force of Personality (he's not, though.)
He has Hear the Unseen. Another effort to compensate for the blinding effects of wearing a helm.
If he is VERY EXCEPTIONAL, he has Quick Reconnoiter. But if he has this, he's up there with D'Artagnon, in terms of competence. He's one guy you don't want to mess around with - he's just too good.

So this 10th level cavalier has the Fighter Starting Feats, plus:
Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Trample, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quick Draw, Skill Focus - Riding, Skill Focus - Long Sword, Skill Focus - Lance, Weapon Specialization - Long Sword, Weapon Specialization - Lance, Toughness, Close Quarters Fighting, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Hold the Line, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Combat Intuition, Danger Sense, Expert Tactician, and possibly Quick Reconnoiter.
 
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He has the Fighter Starting Feats, plus:
Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Trample, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quick Draw, Skill Focus - Riding, Skill Focus - Long Sword, Skill Focus - Lance, Weapon Specialization - Long Sword, Weapon Specialization - Lance, Toughness, Close Quarters Fighting, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Hold the Line, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Combat Intuition, Danger Sense, Expert Tactician, and possibly Quick Reconnoiter.

Obviously, I can't give a 10th level cavalier all of these feats under the RAW.

Under the RAW, I could give him 2 starting feats (he's human), 3 more feats (3rd, 6th, 9th), and 6 fighter feats (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th.)
So I could give him a total of 11 feats under the RAW.
The list of feats above is 29 to 30 feats long!

So, I have to use a different system to create this particular 10th level cavalier.
Basically, he's going to need 3 feats per level, on average, to pull off this stunt (x 10 levels.)
That Feats Galore Option of mine would grant him 2 starting feats, plus 3 feats per level. But he would advance only half as fast in levels (he would have been 20th level, had he not sacrificed 10 levels to obtain 20 feats.)

He could take Hrothgar Rannúlfr's system (see earlier in this thread) where you instead of leveling, you gain 5 feats (but you are considered a level higher for purposes of Character Level, experience points and advancement.)
He'd count as 14th level, for he'd have to take the option 4 times to gain the extra 20 feats.

Or, he could be one of those really legendary characters, almost superheroic, a man who adventures on his own, and is already a legendary champion.
In this case, the Extreme Feat Option would grant him the 30 feats above (he'd definitely have Quick Reconnoiter in this case), and he'd still have another 24 feats to choose from - for his other class (he's gestalt, in this case - being an honorable cavalier, we must hope he choose an honorable alternate class to pursue.
The cavalier-paladin, that mighty class from the 1E Unearthed Arcana, might be duplicated in this fashion (if you want such powerful critters in your game : ) ) One class would be cavalier, and the other paladin, in the gestalt (both being considered one 'class' for Character Level, experience, and advancement.)
So, in this case he had with 54 feats (it is, after all, called the Extreme Feat Option), he has used 30 for his cavalier side, and must figure out how to spend his remaining 24 feats.

Hrothgar Rannúlfr's system could duplicate this too.
If the cavalier-paladin started as a regular gestalt (cavalier as one class, paladin as the other), and he sacrificed 8 levels, he could gain the extra 40 feats on top of his 11 allowed feats, for a total of 51 feats.
Of course, he would be considered 18th level for purposes of what he was fighting, while only being 10th level, so his would be a very hard life (or, very slow advancement.)

Or ...

(shrugs)

I could simply allow the 2 starting feats plus 3 feats per level (on top of fighter and metamagic feats.) For free. No strings attached.
Then he'd have 32 feats + 6 fighter feats available at 10th level, and could have the 29 to 30 feats above.
3 feats per level would allow for a truly feat rich game.
 
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