Concerning Feats

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

My apologies for not getting back to this thread, sooner.

Epic6th is a great idea. Unfortunately, I couldn't get my players to agree to limit their characters to only 6th level.

But, to the main question(s), as I see them, in the thread.

What I offer my players is this: A special prestige class that offers only feats. Taking a level in this prestige class grants the character 5 bonus feats. It confers no other benefit (either to BAB, saves, hit points, etc...).

For all intents and purposes, it works just like the character had taken a level in a prestige class.

For me, I really like it. Because, even though it seems like it gives the character a lot, they still gain XP as if they were a level higher than they were, but they didn't really get much tougher. Instead, they only increased their options through the extra bonus feats. So, it may serve to slow advancement, a bit, while still allowing the characters to grow in breadth (if not in height), so to speak.

Does taking a level in this PrC cause the Character Level to increase, in your system?

Yes. It increases the character's character level just as if they'd gained a level in any other class or prestige class.

For example, if a 1st level character levels, and instead of becoming 2nd level she takes 1 level in the PrC and gains 5 feats, does she now count as a 2nd level Character? (thus, requiring more experience points to level the next time.)

Yes.

If yes, can this PrC be taken multiple times? Say the character above reaches 5th level in her class (and is a 6th level Character overall), could she take the PrC again and gain 5 feats, remain 5th level in her class, but now be counted as a 7th level Character?

Yes. Of course, the DM might want to rule that only 5 or 10 levels of this prestige class could be taken by a single character.

Is that how it works?

Yes.

EDIT: It seems to work like this. I'm just checking to be sure.

Seems like you've got it. It works very well for me. I use it for NPC's and monsters, quite a bit. It makes them more flavorful, to me.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Epic6 looks like a great idea, and a good alternate set of rules.

Players, of course, may well insist on the ability to eventually reach high level (as you saw, Hrothgar) and thus the group can't go with Epic6.
I really have no answer to that one.

Nor, do I.

I was trying to create a system where the players could advance, but more slowly, while gaining feats.

I use a few of the ideas that I've gleaned from Monte Cook's Books of Experimental Might.

One is that I automatically award more feats as the characters advance in level. I don't do it exactly like Monte recommends, but it's close.

What I do is I award every character two feats at first level (plus one more, if the character is human). And, then two more at every even numbered level. However, I automtically treat the characters as if they are one character level higher than they actually are for purposes of gaining Experience Points.

The other thing that I do is character's cannot make multiple attacks without taking feats to access them (other than the Monk when using a Flurry of Blows). So, extra attacks cost feats.

Also, I don't award ability score increases every four levels. Instead, a character has to buy those, if they really want them, with a feat slot (max 1 per ability score per 4 character levels).

All in all, it's working quite beautifully.

 

[Angrydad]

Here's my question for anyone who feels like responding: Why do you all think players need more feats exactly?
Don't just say, "They're underpowered if they have as many feats as the core books say", but tell me why the core books' progression seems underpowered to you/in your campaign. I'm just curious, cause my group has never had any problems with the number of feats that come with standard classes and progression from the core system. Personally, I think you all sound like power gamers when you're asking for more feats per level or whatever and diminishing the significance of feats in general. Your character doesn't need a feat to have a certain trait, he can be a tough guy without getting Great Fortitude or whatever. Maybe it's just me, but I like using skills, stats, and feats to create my character, not just feats.
Anyway, if you really want lots of feats just take fighter levels to get combat feats and then use your regular every 3rd level feats to fill in character traits and other things. We figured this out once, a human fighter who multiclasses with the exoticist class can get 20 or 21 feats in 20 levels.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Here's my question for anyone who feels like responding: Why do you all think players need more feats exactly?

As a DM, I like for my players to have lots and lots of options in play. Lots and LOTS and LOTS of them. Now, the increasingly large number of feats that are available means that there are lots of options... But the relatively small number of feats that characters get means that most of those options never see play. If an option is not seeing any play time, what good is it? No good at all, I say. I want to see those feats used. By my players.

Later
silver

 

[Angrydad]

As a DM, I like for my players to have lots and lots of options in play. Lots and LOTS and LOTS of them. Now, the increasingly large number of feats that are available means that there are lots of options... But the relatively small number of feats that characters get means that most of those options never see play. If an option is not seeing any play time, what good is it? No good at all, I say. I want to see those feats used. By my players.

Later
silver

I understand the whole 'options' thing, but at the same time, I don't think giving my players more feats just because there are so many available is going to keep my game fun and balanced. It just gets to be too much, and I have to then allow monsters access to more feats if I want to keep them equally challenging. Soon it's just a huge headache for me, the DM.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

My apologies for not getting back to this thread, sooner.

(snip)

Seems like you've got it. It works very well for me. I use it for NPC's and monsters, quite a bit. It makes them more flavorful, to me.

It sounds like a modified version of the Feat Master PrC. It sounds pretty neat, your PrC class.

Feat Master lasts only 5 levels, and gives fewer feats (3, 2, 3, 2, 3, instead of 5 per level) but it allows advances in BAB, saves, class abilities, and so on.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Nor, do I.
I use a few of the ideas that I've gleaned from Monte Cook's Books of Experimental Might.

(really curious)

How did feats work in Monte Cook's optional system, in the Book of Experimental Might?
Can you explain in detail? I've never heard of this before, or seen the book.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

As a DM, I like for my players to have lots and lots of options in play. Lots and LOTS and LOTS of them. Now, the increasingly large number of feats that are available means that there are lots of options... But the relatively small number of feats that characters get means that most of those options never see play. If an option is not seeing any play time, what good is it? No good at all, I say. I want to see those feats used. By my players.

Later
silver

I agree with you, Michael.
I think more options equals more fun, in general, so cheers! : )

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Here's my question for anyone who feels like responding: Why do you all think players need more feats exactly?
Don't just say, "They're underpowered if they have as many feats as the core books say", but tell me why the core books' progression seems underpowered to you/in your campaign. I'm just curious, cause my group has never had any problems with the number of feats that come with standard classes and progression from the core system. Personally, I think you all sound like power gamers when you're asking for more feats per level or whatever and diminishing the significance of feats in general. Your character doesn't need a feat to have a certain trait, he can be a tough guy without getting Great Fortitude or whatever. Maybe it's just me, but I like using skills, stats, and feats to create my character, not just feats.
Anyway, if you really want lots of feats just take fighter levels to get combat feats and then use your regular every 3rd level feats to fill in character traits and other things. We figured this out once, a human fighter who multiclasses with the exoticist class can get 20 or 21 feats in 20 levels.

Ok, got a challenge for you.
You know D'Artagnon (sp?) from the Three Musketeers?
He was a very capable fighter (or, perhaps, cavalier.) He could do a lot of things.

Let's say he is 20th level.
What feats would he have? Can you fit all the feats he would have, into 20 levels under the RAW? Or would you need to use extra feats to create him? (I mean, this guy could do it all ...)

If you are not familiar with him, try Legolas. Assume he's 20th level. Take the character from the Peter Jackson films (Oliphant killer and all ...) Can you build him within the RAW?

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Hey Angrydad.

I rarely ever get to play and when I do I go with whatever house rules the GM wants, so I can honestly say power gaming isn't the reason I want more feats.

I really only came to the decision fairly recently when trying to figure a way to let PCs develop fencing styles for a swashbuckle style game, yet at the same time restrict their levels (in order to keep Hit Points and excessively powerful magic limited.) It just occurred to me I could allow this for any game.

Now please take note that I restrict what feats are available. Quite severely compared to most folks. I try to be aware of synergies that result in broken builds. In short I don't do it for the extra power, I do it for the extra variety. I want my players to be able to achieve a certain style of character without having to wait until they're 10th level.

I haven't really put this into play yet, the game where I started doing it has died and the other game I run has been going too long for such a radical shift in rules. But the next game I get up will do this. I think I'll use the D20 Conan rules.

Edena:
D'Artagnon hey? In 20 levels? Easy peasy. Just from Core books:
Weapon Finesse, Focus and Specialisation; Endurance (he got from Paris to London and back again in record time to warn the Duke of Buckingham of M'Lady's evil plans); Improved Parry; Dodge; Mobility; Combat Reflexes; maybe some skill focus for things like Tumbling or Bluff and Seduction. You could have everything except the skill focus by 8th level as a human fighter. Sure there's all sorts of things you could give him, but really, that's enough. He wasn't super human, just damn good and very tenacious.