Confused about staves

On a related note, one of our players has recently started playing a Sorcerer. He wants to know if it's possible to use a Vicious Staff or Vicious Dagger as his implement, and gain its bonus to critical damage when using Implement-based powers.

Yup. He can use any dagger of any kind. Same with any other implement type he's able to use.
 

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Of course he would. Why wouldn't he?

We'd got the idea that magic weapon properties might only be applicable to powers with the weapon keyword, and likewise for magic implement properties. None of us could find a definitive ruling to the contrary in the books, so we felt the need to seek out confirmation.
 

We'd got the idea that magic weapon properties might only be applicable to powers with the weapon keyword, and likewise for magic implement properties. None of us could find a definitive ruling to the contrary in the books, so we felt the need to seek out confirmation.

It was a perfectly reasonable question too. In fact the rules really are silent on the subject. The general reasoning being if it doesn't say something like that doesn't work, then it probably does.

However the real certainty on this issue comes from WotC themselves. CS and various FAQ entries that have touched on this topic consistently demonstrate that as far as WotC is concerned "using a weapon" as an implement is entirely identical to using it as a weapon (ie with an implement power vs a weapon power) aside from the explicitly excluded weapon proficiency bonus. Some feats do exclude providing a bonus in these situations by how they are worded but they're all pretty clear about it.

There are still one or two minor areas that are undefined. For instance a Flaming Weapon has a power which is a free action to add 1d6 fire damage and ongoing 5 fire damage on a hit with the weapon. There has never been a ruling about using these free action "add on" powers with implement attacks, though it is hard to really see why it would be disallowed.
 

With, of course, investment in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intellegence, and Wisdom...

...MAD much?

If you avoid bludgeoning mastery, the MAD is not to bad. But yes, it is costly - which it should be considering all the bonuses it gives.

My issue with the stat prereqs is not so much that you need them as that you need to build for them from 1st level, even when some of these feats won't be taken well into paragon level. THAt is a big failure of 4E in my book.
 

Eh, those bonuses don't look all that impressive .. I guess we'll have to put it side by side with ... oh ... say ... my half-elf bard archer (which is nowhere near a DPR monster), and see.
 

If you avoid bludgeoning mastery, the MAD is not to bad. But yes, it is costly - which it should be considering all the bonuses it gives.

My issue with the stat prereqs is not so much that you need them as that you need to build for them from 1st level, even when some of these feats won't be taken well into paragon level. THAt is a big failure of 4E in my book.

Well, it would be nice if you didn't have to worry about them at level 1, yes. Problem is if they lowered prereqs then it would be too easy to get a lot of good stuff on one character. Its an argument for using feat chains vs ability score prereqs basically. But feat chains pretty well lock out later creative use of a feat too. No perfect solution ever existed.
 

We'd got the idea that magic weapon properties might only be applicable to powers with the weapon keyword, and likewise for magic implement properties. None of us could find a definitive ruling to the contrary in the books, so we felt the need to seek out confirmation.

There are weapon item powers and properties that explicitly call out, identify, and work with classes that have no weapon powers in them.

If your interpretation were the case then these items could not work without specifically stating implement powers in their text.

Powers and properties that are restricted to weapon and implement powers explicitly state so. Making stuff on weapons not work with implement powers is a harsh nerf to classes that use weapons as implements, especially the Swordmage.

You can't even make an argument that a swordmage isn't using his implements "weaponishly", as that's the default casting style of the class.
 

We'd got the idea that magic weapon properties might only be applicable to powers with the weapon keyword, and likewise for magic implement properties. None of us could find a definitive ruling to the contrary in the books, so we felt the need to seek out confirmation.

As I understand it, he is casting through one of his two daggers (if he is going that route) and the crit and such is counted from which dagger he is casting through, not the one being used as the second impelment.
 

As I understand it, he is casting through one of his two daggers (if he is going that route) and the crit and such is counted from which dagger he is casting through, not the one being used as the second impelment.

Yep, all Dual Implement Spellcaster lets you do is add the second weapon's enhancement bonus to damage, and nothing more.

Altho properties not having to do with attacking with said dagger still work fine.
 

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