D&D 5E Considering the D&D Next Playtest in Light of the WotC Seminars

[bpauls]

I have now had a chance to go through the transcripts of the WoTC seminars and to identify the elements of the new system that they have chosen to make public.

Since my NDA only covers confidential information, this gives me more latitude in describing my gaming experience during the playtest at DDXP.

I hope this new post helps those who weren't able to make it to the convention.

Putting this summary together has me even more jazzed to run D&D Next when it moves to a public playtest...

 

[Mengu]

I feel like I missed DDXP. I was there, I did the play test. Your experience in all aspects but one, is nothing like mine. Either I got a seriously bum DM, or the rules are in a very loose and open to interpretation state. The only part I had the same experience is, yeah, level 1 is not about victory, it's all about survival. In 6 combats, we fled 4 times, 3 of them all the way back to town.

 

[FireLance]

I found it quite interesting that there was a cleric, a rogue and a wizard, but no fighter. Makes me wonder whether the "warlord" was actually a fighter with a warlord theme.

As for the race, I'm betting either dragonborn or tiefling. The token 4e class needs a token 4e race!

 

[The Shadow]

Hot diggity! Now this is some information I can sink my teeth into!

I'm especially intrigued that the wizard at-will felt different from ordinary attacks; this is very promising. Apparently it's an opposed ability check, with the wizard rolling Int I'd guess, and the defender rolling a saving throw. Dex, most likely?

Although all six ability scores are used as saves, my gut tells me that Dex and Con are going to get a lot more of a workout than the others. Along with either Wis or Cha. Str I could see being used against grappling, paralysis and the like; and I can't think of much of anything for Int except for illusions. We already know that Cha is being used for fear and charms; that leaves other mental stuff for Wis?

It's also interesting that you can apparently do quite a bit of stuff without needing to roll - the rogue did a lot of reconnoitering without having to roll once.

EDIT: The fact that spells require opposed rolls will tend to push results to the middle - thus a small edge on one side will tend to be amplified. But of course very swingy results are possible.

Also, more randomness usually favors the NPC's, simply because they only have to survive one battle while the PC's have to survive them all. Wizards will feel quite motivated to target an opponent's low stats.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I found it quite interesting that there was a cleric, a rogue and a wizard, but no fighter. Makes me wonder whether the "warlord" was actually a fighter with a warlord theme.

I think there's more evidence leaning on there being a Warlord class, than just a Warlord theme.

 

[Jack99]

I think the interwebs must have matured. Or did I miss the 4576 threads about how "Javelins of Fire" have ruined dndnext before it's even out?

 

[FireLance]

I think the interwebs must have matured. Or did I miss the 4576 threads about how "Javelins of Fire" have ruined dndnext before it's even out?

Actually, I think there was a small amount of outrage that wizards had to spend a feat to get javelin of fire. Of course, not calling it burningmanticore flamejavelin probably helped, although I thought they missed the chance to call it Aganazzer's incendiary projectile.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Actually, I think there was a small amount of outrage that wizards had to spend a feat to get javelin of fire. Of course, not calling it burningmanticore flamejavelin probably helped, although I thought they missed the chance to call it Aganazzer's incendiary projectile.

Or 'Melf's Minute Meteor' - I wonder if they lost the rights to Melf somehow, because 4e has a plain vanilla 'acid arrow?'

 

[Tony Vargas]

Although all six ability scores are used as saves, my gut tells me that Dex and Con are going to get a lot more of a workout than the others.

My concern is that its likely to leave a character with more Achilles Heels than feet. A character viable in terms of AC and having the stats to be OK in his class might have 2 or even 4 abysmal saves. Heck, a random-rolled character could have 6.

Having /a/ weakness is a common, but not universal theme in heroic fantasy. Very often in fantasy or myth the hero is a paragon who does everything well. Fatal flaws are definitely out there, particularly in tragedy, of course. In 3e and 4e characters had 3 saves, and it was hard not to have at least one of them good and one of them bad. Even in AD&D each class tended to have one better save and one not so good one, rather than lots of really bad ones (and they all advanced quite evenly, anyway). So it's always been likely (almost certain) a PC will have a weakness or blind spot. It's just problematic to have too many that are too weak.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I feel like I missed DDXP. I was there, I did the play test. Your experience in all aspects but one, is nothing like mine. Either I got a seriously bum DM, or the rules are in a very loose and open to interpretation state. The only part I had the same experience is, yeah, level 1 is not about victory, it's all about survival. In 6 combats, we fled 4 times, 3 of them all the way back to town.

I'm not real enthused by the 'mother may I' style of play, it /is/, as you may have experienced, very dependent on the skill/experience, personality/talent, and mood of the DM.

Also the return to relative incompetence at level one isn't inspiring. One of the things I liked about 3e and 4e is that they made the PCs of an Heroic Fantasy RPG more heroic from the start.

 

[The Shadow]

Also the return to relative incompetence at level one isn't inspiring. One of the things I liked about 3e and 4e is that they made the PCs of an Heroic Fantasy RPG more heroic from the start.

I don't know if 'incompetence' is the right word. I think it's more that you don't start head-and-shoulders above the opposition. And I for one am down with that - provided we don't get back to the days of wizards being killed by housecats.

 

[Serendipity]

My interest is again quite piqued.
When does the playtest start already? Can't be too soon.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't know if 'incompetence' is the right word. I think it's more that you don't start head-and-shoulders above the opposition. And I for one am down with that - provided we don't get back to the days of wizards being killed by housecats.

Oh, I don't mind wizards being killed by housecats. I just don't like it as a balancing mechanism for Wish.

But, yeah, with the theif aparently able to stealth without a roll, 'incompetence' may not be the right word.

 

[Saracenus]

Or 'Melf's Minute Meteor' - I wonder if they lost the rights to Melf somehow, because 4e has a plain vanilla 'acid arrow?'

Melf's Minute Meteor was just mentioned in Robert J. Schwalb's Designer article at WotC for Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. Just in time!

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Designing Chaos: Classes and Themes)

"Just as the book gives a nod to DARK SUN, we also recall the Al-Qadim setting from 2nd Edition. I always found the sha'ir kit interesting and compelling, and so bringing this concept back as a wizard build let us resurrect a great concept left behind from a previous edition. By choosing the sha'ir build, you gain the service of a gen servant, who pops off to fetch spells for you from the powers in the Elemental Chaos. Your alliance with this minor elemental grants you access to a wide range of elemental powers, from a Harry Potter-inspired watery sphere to classic spells such as Melf's minute meteors, dig, and reverse gravity. Even if you don't choose the sha'ir build, the new wizard powers are available to all wizards, offering cool new spells no matter what kind of wizard you play."

Now back to your regularly scheduled D&D Next!

 

[Sadras]

I'm not real enthused by the 'mother may I' style of play, it /is/, as you may have experienced, very dependent on the skill/experience, personality/talent, and mood of the DM.

Fair comment. But skill/experience of a DM has always played a part on whether a session was enjoyable or not or whether the preparation of the adventure was good, or whether the DM was well rested...

The D&D enthusiasts they wish to capture (their target audience) are not new roleplayers. Sure they want to expand the hobby, but the target market is the fragmented D&D base which they hope to unite. The D&D base is skilled/experienced/talented...sure there are bad DMs out there, but I'm sure the new DMG will provide the tools and guidelines to use this new edition efficiently. I guess I'm a little bias, and therefore a little more optimistic, since I am a DM myself .

Also the return to relative incompetence at level one isn't inspiring. One of the things I liked about 3e and 4e is that they made the PCs of an Heroic Fantasy RPG more heroic from the start.

I can never understand why this is a problem...never

There are levels which reflect power, start at a higher level, explain the lower levels as backstory fluff.
One of the things I miss from the BECMI and older editions are the titles you received at each level. It could easily be explained that the mage was a junior apprentice at level 1 and then became the senior apprentice in his master's tower at level 2 before venturing out on his own at level 3 after his master's unfortunate accident...wala Level 3 starting point. More hit points more power. Why are we still making an issue of this?

 

[Ichneumon]

Stop the press. D&D Next threatens to reward players who kickstart the grey pudding between their ears.

When a list of skills isn't laid out in front of you, discerning what your six ability scores will let you do takes a little mental effort, especially for new players. Just because a PC has a high enough score to automatically succeed at a task doesn't mean the player will think of it. Those advantage bonuses will be reaped by players smart enough to figure out ways to get them.

Not that I'd want this to result in the old adversarial playstyle where DMs filled a dungeon with "gotchas". But I like the idea of players having to think quickly to deal with combats and hazards that turned out more dangerous than they picked.

 

[Yora]

Or 'Melf's Minute Meteor' - I wonder if they lost the rights to Melf somehow, because 4e has a plain vanilla 'acid arrow?'

I think the issue is much rather "Who is melf?" I assume he's some greyhawk NPC but Greyhawk isn't especially well known, even among D&D players.

 

[MortalPlague]

Melf was one of Gary Gygax's old PCs, unless I'm mistaken?

The playtest report had a delightful amount of information in it, particularly compared to what we're used to reading. So thank you very much, bspauls. You've done us a service.

Who survived the near-TPK, out of curiosity?

 

[Blacky the Blackball]

Melf was one of Luke Gygax's characters in Gary Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign.

The name was short for Male Elf, since the character was a male elf and Luke couldn't be bothered thinking up a better name.

 

[Kelvor Ravenstar]

Wait, so with the Wizard "setting the DC" for the saving throws, that means they're returning to the pre-4e way of spells. No more rolling to attack, just the defender has to make a save.
I doubt they'll get rid of the save every round for spell duration, but this change has me very disappointed. Everybody rolling attack rolls against defenses was one of the best changes for 4e IMHO.