D&D 5E Considering the D&D Next Playtest in Light of the WotC Seminars

Jack99

Adventurer
I'll say it again.

There is a difference between

1. There is a danger, and

2. You could die with that one shot.


The idea that random crit deaths for fully healthy characters would make it less "easy" is laughable. "Easy" is a matter of challenge. There is no challenge in crossing your fingers and hoping that the DM doesn't roll a 20. Challenge exists in the decisions you make. Random crit kills on fully healthy characters doesn't allow you a decision, UNLESS completely avoiding combat is a legitimate and fully supported decision 100% of the time you're facing a monster who can one shot kill a fully healthy PC.

Just remember that in the playtest, the paladin who got one-shotted was already wounded, so it was not really a true one-shot. Also bear in mind that he as one-shotted by an Ogre, a monster presumably several levels higher than him (he was level 1). Are you still against that being able to happen?

Moar info plz!
 

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Blastin

First Post
First off: Jack, I think they are talking about the game I described where the fighter went from full to dead in one round.
Second: This seems to be getting pretty heated so I think I'm gonna take a chance and clarify what happened. The hobgoblin Boss had two attacks with a battle axe. The DM rolled nat 20's on both attacks. It was a NASTY hit, but also a statistically very unlikely event.
Just for the record: I do not like high lethality games. I do not like to kill characters and don't enjoy having my character die. I do not however mind a rare character death to an even more rare chance of the dice. Chance is part of the game. No one at the table, including the player who had his character killed, minded the death.
I never in all of the other combats felt that the game was any more or less lethal than the first level 3e or 4e games I have played/ran.
 

Jack99

Adventurer
First off: Jack, I think they are talking about the game I described where the fighter went from full to dead in one round.
Second: This seems to be getting pretty heated so I think I'm gonna take a chance and clarify what happened. The hobgoblin Boss had two attacks with a battle axe. The DM rolled nat 20's on both attacks. It was a NASTY hit, but also a statistically very unlikely event.
Just for the record: I do not like high lethality games. I do not like to kill characters and don't enjoy having my character die. I do not however mind a rare character death to an even more rare chance of the dice. Chance is part of the game. No one at the table, including the player who had his character killed, minded the death.
I never in all of the other combats felt that the game was any more or less lethal than the first level 3e or 4e games I have played/ran.

Ah I see. I had missed that. Anyway, a 1st level player dying from a double crit from a boss (presumably higher level) is fine in my book. Could happen in any edition.
 

Connorsrpg

Adventurer
[MENTION=40961]Cadfan[/MENTION]

We clearly have different styles - that is cool by me. I aint going to say the system is flawed (or outright wrong) whichever way they go.

BTW - it was the players who stated 'too easy'. Things just didn't seem lethal enough, the PCs just didn't get to those near death experiences very often. Maybe the dice just went their way for a campaign, maybe I needed to hit them harder, etc. BUT this has been the XP of our 4E games.

Crits don't always kill, but if a high-damage creature hits, like the hobgoblin boss, quoted here, that is far from bad design in our books. It happens. Randomness IS a part of conflict. In fact, I imagine bad luck plays a huge part in war and conflict - especially with magic and the close and personal nature of swordplay.

In any case, FitztheRuke made it clear below. That is how I see it too. (I couldn't XP you yet :().

Still, just out of interest, how would you deal with the crossbow situation? What IS the danger, when you have around 25 hps at 1st level? As a player - the option is obviously ignore the crossbow. They still have to hit, and what is the chance of dropping you right? (And there are very few benefits to the shooter, as there is no Aiming or The Drop bonus for the shooter, like in other games we play). We just like having in the back of our minds, 'Yes, that guy with a crossbow pointed at my chest could kill me'. (Not will, but the possibility is still there for a healthy PC).
 

Stalker0

Legend
As far as the deadliness of 1st level:

I personally don't like very deadly low level games. Most of my games in 3rd edition started at 3rd level.

That said, I have no problems with having that experience available for people. Its far easier for me to skip a level or two than it is for people to make level rules.

So I say, make 1st level deadly, or include a 0th level ruleset for people who want the truly gritty survival adventurers. Then I will simply start my game where I want to get the experience I want.
 

I wonder how many of the "high lethality" players would like a game where every attack was Save or Die. Monster swings at you, roll a Save, if you fail, the monster kills you. If you suceed, you parry or dodge the attack.

It's called Rolemaster.

I've seen a 27th level fighter get one-shotted by a 1st level fighter who got really lucky.

It changes the game dynamic a lot, in that fights are always something dangerous that you want to avoid if possible, and missile weapons and ambush situations are key to winning with minimal risk.

I'd be hard pushed to say whether that's better or worse than the normal D&D experience. It's different, and you may or may not prefer it.

Personally, I wouldn't mind traditional 1st level lethality, but with an offsetting mechanic. Maybe Fate points or similar. Lethal games are interesting, but having a character killed by the very first action of a adventure, before they even get a chance to act, is a little too lethal for me. At least let them burn a Fate point to avoid that specific death.

Personally, I'm a fan of both high lethality and easy access to resurrection. They're both part of what makes D&D the high-action game that it is, rather than some angst-filled storytelling game.

After all, high level clerics get multiple Raise Dead spells per day for a reason...

My favourite edition is BECMI, where there are lots of save-or-die situations but being raised doesn't even cost any money (the spell has no material components), never mind costing Con points or levels to the recipient.
 

HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
Over in the Giants in the Playground fourm another playtester is answering quastions about his playtest...

Giant in the Playground Forums - View Single Post - Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

The 5 characters: Human Wizard, Elf Wizard, Dwarf Warlord, Half orc Cleric, Halfling thief. The 2 wizards are following very different rules.

Human Wizard has a spell book with something like X (5 at 2nd, umpteen at 5th and like 30 at 10th) spells in it. He only gets X (2 at 2nd, 5 at 5th, and 7 at 10th)spells per day though. He preps in the morning what spells he wants with no limit (can prep any spell 5 times if he wants). He has a feat (at 5th and 10th) that gives him the ability to make a javelin of fire. It does the same damage as the Dwarf’s javelin, just as fire, and requires an attack roll. He also can once per encounter (from 2nd level on up) use either Burning hands or ray of enfeeblement, prep one and that is his encounter for the day. (he has not used it yet but I think he could prep shield as well).
His daily powers all have (X save for1/2 or negate) the DCs are all set by spell, and we could not back engineer the DCs and how they were set.
He has a wand and a dagger, and he sucks if he needs to attack with the dagger

My elf wizard (who does not have Elvin accuracy) has 5 cantrips at will, 2 of them look like they broke up prestidigitation into 3 and I only have 2 of the 3. I then have mage hand (almost a direct port from 4e), Detect Magic, and Magic missile. MM has the most interesting scale. At second level it auto hits a target in 20ft for 1d4 damage (no mod) at 5th level it auto hits either 1 or 2 targets in 45ft, if 2 targets 1d4 each, if 1 target 1d8 damage. At 10th level can hit 1,2,or 3 targets in 60ft 1d4 each if 3 targets, 1d6 if 2 targets, and 1d10 if 1 target. I can once per encounter at 2nd, and 2times per encounter at 5th and 10th use an evergy bolt (kinda like warlock eldritch blast) that does 2d6+3 (int is plus we think) save for half. I choose when I use it what energy type it deals, fire or acid is a Dex save for half, Electric or Acid is Con Save for half. I have 2/3/4 dailys depending on level, and they are all siloes. The 5th and 10th level versions and have a silo of Fireball/Hast/Dispel Magic, so once per day I can use one of those spells, but no prep. When I cast any spell (except cantrips that just work) I roll a d20 to set the DC, I add what I think is my Int mod to the roll (and the 10th level me gets +1 to the roll more).

Example: Fight 1 I cast Energy Bolt (Fire), I pick a target (lets say an orc) and he makes a dex save. The DC is 1d20+3, lets say I roll great, I get an 18, the DC is now 21. I roll damage well he rolls his save, and my luck holds, I roll a 6 and a 4 (+3) and he gets a 14 save… so I do 13 fire damage
Fight 2 I cast energy bold Electric, I pick another Orc as the target, he makes a Con Save. I roll a bad roll and set the DC at 7 (4 on the roll), and he rolls higher then that before con mod, so I roll damage, get a 4 and a 2 (+3) so I do 4 electric damage to the orc (save for half).

Some monsters have an evasion like ability that if they roll a 20, or double the DC for a save for half they take none.

I use a wand and sword at level 2, at level 5 and 10 I have an elvin sword that functions as an implement. I am way better with melee then the human wizard, but that only places me at 3rd best at 2nd and 5th and 4th best at 10th (when the thief beats me)

The warlord and the Cleric can both heal, at 2nd level the warlord can heal only in combat with hit riders, and the cleric can only heal outside of combat using daily prayers. By 5th level they can both do both (and the cleric can prep prayers by then, and as such change daily). The cleric fights with a mace, the warlord with an axe and shield (he also has a 2 handed sword and a bunch of javalins). The warlord is by far the best melee combatant in the group, and has the most hp.

The hafling thief is interesting. He has 2 daggers, and can fight with both from the start. He makes 2 attacks with a -2 to hit each does 1d4+1 or one attack that does 1d4+3/4 depending on level. If he has advantage (no combat in the phrase) he adds damage. At level 2 he adds 1d6, at level 5 2d8, and at level 10 3d8. He can use this sneak attack with every hit though. He then has a bunch of circumstance powers/modfires. If he is hidden from a target at the start of his turn he can deal an extra d4 damage but he can’t attack with 2 weapons. If he is being flanked and an enemy misses with a melee attack he can deal 3 or 4 damage(depend on level) to the other target flanking him. If he starts his turn not ingaged in melee he can move, attack, move, but again only 1 attack.

He also has a daily on both 5th and 10th level that seems pretty crazy. It lets him turn invisible, and move if he gives up his attack.

at 10th he also has the ability to if he is crit “roll with it” he gives up his next attack, but he can move now, and the crit is turned to just a normal hit.
The two adventures we have we refer to as the Easy undead adventure, and the Deadly Orc Adventure. The undead one is mostly zombies, 2 ghouls, and ends with a vampire. It is pretty strait forward, but with a twist (well the town is being overrun so is the local goblin tribe) The orcs are WAY harder. They are attempting to unlock a mystic sealed gate. They have 2 or 3 hobgoblin mercs with them, and there are traps and killer spiders as well. The orc shaman is pretty badass, but the real kicker is the Orc Chief and his brother, both are half orc half oger.

We tpked against the Chieftain at 2nd level, and only beat him at 5th because of a good tactic, at 10th we won clean. At 5th level we new what was comeing, and we prepped. The cleric blessed the party (+1 to melee attacks and cha saves), I hasted the party (+1 to weapon attacks, +1 AC, +5ft move, and I can give up my standard action any turn to grant a move or standard to anyone else effected), and then I used Invisibility. I spent the whole fight just giving the hafling more attacks.

I know dice can’t be factored in, and luck is a strange mistress, but not one charm or sleep spell has worked yet, saves where made everytime. My wizard seems to be a melee monster (at 2nd and 5th I have +1 less to hit then the cleric and +1 more then the thief, at 10th the thief and cleric get the same to hit). The other wizard goes up 2 to hit between 2 and 5, then 1 between 5 and 10. The thief is the reverse 1 between 2 and 5 then 3 more by 10th. I go up 1 per jump so does the cleric and warlord.
At no point at 2nd level does my wizard need a 20 to hit anything with my sword (although the shaman orc can buff himself up to (for one round), and the chief’s brother has an AC I need a 19 at that level, and the other wiz would need a 20 for)

The warlord has a cool power thing that when he or an ally has advantage over an adjacent enemy they get +3 instead of +2 to hit. He also has a commander strike like ability, and he has something called wolf pact tactics as a feat or class feature (can’t tell diff) that when he hits with his axe he or an ally adjacent to the target can move up to half there speed.
Magic items so far: Gauntlets of Ogre power give +2 str and a push effect power. Ring of prot increases AC and saves. Elvin Long sword functions as a wand. Knives have a returning feature (maybe all magic thrown weapons). Pearls of Power exsist too, and the 10th level wizard has 2 of them.
 



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