Converting Epic Level Beings

[Shade]

we'll probably want to list it as "Epic feat suggestion(s):"

I like the way they handled something similar in a recent issue of Dragon. They had a demon that used spells and feats from the BOVD. After each one from the BOVD, they put an alternate core rules feat or spell in brackets, and noted that the items in brackets were for those not using the BOVD.

Of course, the Fiend Folio method was nice too, which simply added a sidebar stating, "If you are using the Epic Level Handbook..." and made suggestions for swapping out feats.

 

[Krishnath]

24HD sounds good to me, the base saves should be Fort +14, Ref +14, and Will +14, but not for the reasons stated above. As the demonlords HD are all racial it's saves are equal to it's HD/2+2, or 12+2=14, epic save and BAB progressions only count when classes are involved. It's a common mistake.

Anyways, on to the abilities:

Poison: Initial and Secondary damage 2d6 con?

 

[BOZ]

yeah, that sounds good. the only damage listed for the poison is "deadly", so it must have been an instant kill on a failed save. 3E poisons are much more merciful, but the damage you listed could still be pretty fatal.

other random thoughts...

in addition to suggesting ELH feats, we can also suggest a few BoVD feats.

also from BoVD...

all demon lords have SR of CR + (10-14)

demogorgon has fast healing 10, graz'zt and yeenoghu have 5.

demogorgon, graz'zt, orcus, and yeenoghu have see invisibility.

most appear to have an insight bonus to AC that is based on Wis bonus, but Juiblex's is higher and Yeenoghu's is actually lower. orcus also has a Cha-based Deflection bonus to AC.

i finally got the BoED (yay!) and it appears to be a whole lot more consistent. all of the paragons have an insight bonus and a deflection bonus. all except for the eladrin king and queen have the insight based on Wis and the deflection based on Cha. perahps the lesson here is that if you're chaotic you don't have to follow the rules? i'd say we should use our best judgement on this topic.

also, in BoED all paragons have their race as a subtype, so we should also reflect this in new conversions.

 

[Grazzt]

Its base saves would all be +14 (+12 for 20 HD outsider, +2 epic for remaining 4 HD).

Like Krish- said above, epic level progressions (for saves, BAB, etc.) only count when class levels are involved. A 24 HD monster (outsider in this case) has a BAB of 24 and base saves of Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +14.

 

[Krishnath]

Hi Grazzt!

Boz: Then the 'guardian demon' (that's an oxymoron if I ever saw one), would have the Tanar'ri subtype?

 

[BOZ]

if you mean the one we're working on, then yes i would suppose so. it does seem to be associated with the other tanar'ri, at least loosely.

 

[Shade]

in addition to suggesting ELH feats, we can also suggest a few BoVD feats.

also from BoVD...

all demon lords have SR of CR + (10-14)

I guess we'll have to determine its CR first.

demogorgon has fast healing 10, graz'zt and yeenoghu have 5.

Since this guy is only a "lowly" guardian, I'd give him none.

demogorgon, graz'zt, orcus, and yeenoghu have see invisibility.

Since this is a guardian, he'd definitely benefit from this ability.

most appear to have an insight bonus to AC that is based on Wis bonus, but Juiblex's is higher and Yeenoghu's is actually lower. orcus also has a Cha-based Deflection bonus to AC.

He'd probably be fine with natural armor only.

i finally got the BoED (yay!) and it appears to be a whole lot more consistent. all of the paragons have an insight bonus and a deflection bonus. all except for the eladrin king and queen have the insight based on Wis and the deflection based on Cha. perahps the lesson here is that if you're chaotic you don't have to follow the rules? i'd say we should use our best judgement on this topic.

I'm glad you got it. It appears to be one of the most consistent books they've released (except for changing the archon resistances, but I maintain that the Monster Manual 3.5 is wrong, not the BOED).

also, in BoED all paragons have their race as a subtype, so we should also reflect this in new conversions.

Agreed. And I second the motion to give this guy the tanar'ri subtype.

 

[BOZ]

I guess we'll have to determine its CR first.

not necessarily. we can just give him SR at an undetermined value until we set a CR.

He'd probably be fine with natural armor only.

you sure 'bout that?

 

[Krishnath]

I suggest giving it either a deflection bonus equal to his cha bonus -or- an insight bonus equal to his wis bonus, but not both, in addition to any natural armor we give him. This would increase the demons touch AC a little without making it unbalanced.(and if to high AC is a problem, just reduce it's natural armor accordingly.)

 

[Shade]

The reason I don't believe he should have a deflection or insight bonus to AC is simple: he is not a demon lord or prince.

In BOVD, Demogorgon's CR 27 Marilith blackguards do not have any AC bonus other than natural and Dex. Nor does Glasya, whom we were using as a benchmark for this guy's power.

It would definitely beef the guy up, but I think we should reserve the insight/deflection bonuses for the true rulers of the Lower Planes.