Converting Epic Level Beings

[BOZ]

naaahh... i like 'em CE. and the monk abilities are not really necessary, it's just an idea - not worth changing alignment over.

 

[Clifford]

Atlas with class

Hmm how about Fighter 10 i think that if we overpower them with levels it would take away from the fact that the gods dethrowned them if we over class them then it would make less sense that the gods whooped their arses.

cliff

 

[Shade]

Some notes from the original description:

His damage per slam attack was listed as an astounding 10-100 (10d10), far higher than any of his other fellows. How high should we set his baseline damage before adding his strength bonus (and remember, each had varying amounts of damage for their slams).

Hmmm...The way I see it, we have several options:

One, we could give him the unarmed attack bonus of a 10th-level monk, and then advance it to size Colossal.

Two, we could give him the 10d10. The highest slam attack damage I could find on a monster was the adamantine golem in the ELH, at 6d10 for a 54HD, CR 25, Huge construct. I could see the legendary Atlas besting a Huge golem.

Three, we could give him the standard slam damage for a Gargantuan creature (or slightly better), and then improve it with great Strength, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Spec, and Epic Weapon Spec.

Speaking of strength, I propose we deal with his might this way. Here is the text: “This strength is drawn from the Prime Material Plane. When the titan is on other planes he only has strength of 25, but when on the Prime Material Plane there is nothing he can't lift, nothing he can't bend, and nothing he can't break!” We’ll say that on the outer planes (or any other than Material) his strength will be at the value we ultimately determine. However, on the Material Plane, his Str score will be effectively infinite for the purpose of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats. His attack bonus and damage bonus, however, will remain unchanged. Sound fair?

That sounds fair. We could also give him the domain ability of the Strength domain, so he could occasionally bring his great strength to bear in combat.

Now, each titan had character levels. Altas was listed as a 19th level fighter and 10th level monk. What class features should we therefore assign him? Since monks are strictly lawful now, I’d be wary about giving him too many monk abilities.

We could add a Feats section in the description that states: "Atlas is treated as a 19th-level fighter for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of feats such as Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization."

For monk abilities, maybe give him Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and the flurry of blows ability. The only other thing I could see giving him is the unarmored AC bonus.

 

[BOZ]

I was rethinking the idea about his slam damage – base damage doesn’t need to be as high as 10d10, as he gets his Strength bonus (+19) plus whatever feats we add to enhance that. I think I’ll bump his Str up to 50 (+20 bonus), make the base damage 8d10, and give him the weapon specialization plus the greater and epic versions (+8 bonus total), making the total damage range 36-108.

Unlimited Strength (Su): While on the Material Plane, Atlas can perform seeming impossible feats of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats. His strength score is effectively infinite to perform such feats. This ability cannot be used during combat. (although maybe a Concentration roll to lift a building or smash something??)

Modified Strength Domain ability: “Atlas can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. He gains an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to (X). Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable X per day.” Alternatively, that first sentence can simply be replaced with: “Feat of Strength (Su):”


Well, before we go too far into making a monk(ey) out of Atlas (thankfully, none of the other titans had monk levels), why not examine what a 10th level monk had in 1E?

“With respect to combat, monks attack on the same table as thieves. However, they add one-half of a hit point per level of experience to the amount of damage they score when they successfully attack an opponent with a weapon. This simulates their study and knowledge of weapons and anatomy. A 1st level monk scores x + % HP of damage, where x equals the damage done by the weapon used and HP equals the number of hit points of damage. A 2nd level monk does x + 1 when he or she scores a hit, a 3rd level x + 1 %, and so on all the way to Grand Master of Flowers who scores x + 8% HP damage. Monks of median level and above actually fight better without weapons, using their open hands, despite the weapon damage bonus they receive.”

and

“Monks make saving throws on the table used by thieves, but they gain certain advantages: Non-magical missiles (arrows, bolts, bullets, thrown daggers, thrown javelins, thrown spears, etc.) which would normally hit can be dodged are knocked aside if the monk is able to make his or her saving throw against petrification for each such potential hit. In other respects, if a monk makes his or her saving throw against an attack form, the monk will sustain no damage from the attack, even if the attack form was a fireball, for instance. At 9th level (Master of the North Wind) or higher, a monk who fails to make his or her saving throw will still sustain but one-half the total potential damage which the attack form could deliver, if possible. That is, a fireball would do 50% of total damage, but the gaze of a basilisk would still petrify the monk.

At 1st level of experience, a monk is as likely to be surprised as any other character, i.e. 33 1/3%. This chance goes down to 32% at 2nd level, and it thereafter goes down 2% per level, so there is only a 30% chance of surprising a 3rd level monk, 28% chance at 4th level, 26% chance at 5th level, etc.”

Monks also had the thief abilities of Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Hear Noise, and Climb Walls as a thief of the same level.

“At 6th level (Master), a monk can fall up to 30' if he or she is within 4' of a wall.

The monk must have an opportunity to periodically make contact with the wall during the descent. The wall is used by the monk to slow the fall so that no hit points of damage are sustained from the fall. Note that when reference to a wall is made, any similar surface, such as a tree trunk, cliff face, and the like, are equally useful to the monk.”

A level 10 monk had the following attributes. AC of 3 (mimicked by insight bonus now), movement rate of 24 (60 feet now), 2 open hand melee attacks per round at 3-13 damage each, and the following special abilities:

“A. The ability to speak with animals as druids do which begins at 3rd level of experience.

B. The ability to mask the mind so that ESP has only a 30% chance of success. This power begins at 4th level, and with each level
of experience which the monk gains thereafter, the chance for success of ESPing the monk's thoughts drops by 2%, i.e. 28% chance of success on a 5th level monk, 26% on a 6th level, etc.

C. At 5th experience level a monk is not subject to diseases of any sort, nor is he ever affected by haste or slow spells.

D. The ability to use self-induced catalepsy to appear dead. This can be done perfectly, as the 6th (or higher) level monk is able to lower his or her body temperature and heart rate. The monk is able to maintain this state for twice the number of turns (10 minute periods) which equal his level, i.e. 12 turns at 6th level, 14 at 7th, etc.

E. At 7th level the monk gains the ability to heal damage on his or her body. The amount of damage which can be healed is 2-5 hit points (d4 + l), and this amount increases by 1 hit point with each experience level gained thereafter, i.e. 3-6 HP at 8th level, 4-7 at 9th, etc. This may be done once per day.

F. The ability to speak with plants as druids do. This power is attained at 8th level.

G. Beguiling, charms, hypnosis, and suggestion spells have only a 50% chance of affecting a monk of the 9th level of experience. That is, the monk is 50% resistant to such magic. This resistance increases 5% per level thereafter, so that at 10th level such spells have but a 45% chance of affecting the monk, 40% at 11th level, and so on. Saving throws apply if resistance fails.

H. Telepathic and mind blast attacks (see ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, MONSTER MANUAL, Mind Flayer) upon a monk of 10th or higher level are made as if the character had an 18 intelligence, due to the monk's mental discipline.”


Now, I don’t think it’s necessary to give Atlas all, or even most of this. We can pick and choose from the above abilities (or even better, their analogies from 3E) to give him what makes the most sense.

 

[Shade]

I was rethinking the idea about his slam damage – base damage doesn’t need to be as high as 10d10, as he gets his Strength bonus (+19) plus whatever feats we add to enhance that. I think I’ll bump his Str up to 50 (+20 bonus), make the base damage 8d10, and give him the weapon specialization plus the greater and epic versions (+8 bonus total), making the total damage range 36-108.

Great!

Unlimited Strength (Su): While on the Material Plane, Atlas can perform seeming impossible feats of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats. His strength score is effectively infinite to perform such feats. This ability cannot be used during combat. (although maybe a Concentration roll to lift a building or smash something??)

Although it should seem obvious, you might want to state that he automatically succeeds on any Strength check. Since smashing a building is considered attacking an object, should he be allowed to do it in combat?

Modified Strength Domain ability: “Atlas can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. He gains an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to (X). Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable X per day.” Alternatively, that first sentence can simply be replaced with: “Feat of Strength (Su):”

I like the Feat of Strength (Su) sentence.

Well, before we go too far into making a monk(ey) out of Atlas (thankfully, none of the other titans had monk levels), why not examine what a 10th level monk had in 1E?

“With respect to combat, monks attack on the same table as thieves. However, they add one-half of a hit point per level of experience to the amount of damage they score when they successfully attack an opponent with a weapon. This simulates their study and knowledge of weapons and anatomy. A 1st level monk scores x + % HP of damage, where x equals the damage done by the weapon used and HP equals the number of hit points of damage. A 2nd level monk does x + 1 when he or she scores a hit, a 3rd level x + 1 %, and so on all the way to Grand Master of Flowers who scores x + 8% HP damage. Monks of median level and above actually fight better without weapons, using their open hands, despite the weapon damage bonus they receive.”

and

“Monks make saving throws on the table used by thieves, but they gain certain advantages: Non-magical missiles (arrows, bolts, bullets, thrown daggers, thrown javelins, thrown spears, etc.) which would normally hit can be dodged are knocked aside if the monk is able to make his or her saving throw against petrification for each such potential hit. In other respects, if a monk makes his or her saving throw against an attack form, the monk will sustain no damage from the attack, even if the attack form was a fireball, for instance. At 9th level (Master of the North Wind) or higher, a monk who fails to make his or her saving throw will still sustain but one-half the total potential damage which the attack form could deliver, if possible. That is, a fireball would do 50% of total damage, but the gaze of a basilisk would still petrify the monk.

Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows as bonus feats, evasion.

At 1st level of experience, a monk is as likely to be surprised as any other character, i.e. 33 1/3%. This chance goes down to 32% at 2nd level, and it thereafter goes down 2% per level, so there is only a 30% chance of surprising a 3rd level monk, 28% chance at 4th level, 26% chance at 5th level, etc.”

We can handle this with Spot and Listen, maybe Alertness as bonus feat?

Monks also had the thief abilities of Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Hear Noise, and Climb Walls as a thief of the same level.

We can just give him the skills, if necessary.

“At 6th level (Master), a monk can fall up to 30' if he or she is within 4' of a wall.

The monk must have an opportunity to periodically make contact with the wall during the descent. The wall is used by the monk to slow the fall so that no hit points of damage are sustained from the fall. Note that when reference to a wall is made, any similar surface, such as a tree trunk, cliff face, and the like, are equally useful to the monk.”

Slow fall ability, although I don't think he needs it.

A level 10 monk had the following attributes. AC of 3 (mimicked by insight bonus now), movement rate of 24 (60 feet now), 2 open hand melee attacks per round at 3-13 damage each, and the following special abilities:

“A. The ability to speak with animals as druids do which begins at 3rd level of experience.

Speak with animals as a spell-like ability should handle this.

B. The ability to mask the mind so that ESP has only a 30% chance of success. This power begins at 4th level, and with each level
of experience which the monk gains thereafter, the chance for success of ESPing the monk's thoughts drops by 2%, i.e. 28% chance of success on a 5th level monk, 26% on a 6th level, etc.

Nondetection, mind blank, or something similar as spell-like abilities? Always active?

C. At 5th experience level a monk is not subject to diseases of any sort, nor is he ever affected by haste or slow spells.

We could give him immunity to disease, but I'd skip the rest.

D. The ability to use self-induced catalepsy to appear dead. This can be done perfectly, as the 6th (or higher) level monk is able to lower his or her body temperature and heart rate. The monk is able to maintain this state for twice the number of turns (10 minute periods) which equal his level, i.e. 12 turns at 6th level, 14 at 7th, etc.

I vote to lose this.

E. At 7th level the monk gains the ability to heal damage on his or her body. The amount of damage which can be healed is 2-5 hit points (d4 + l), and this amount increases by 1 hit point with each experience level gained thereafter, i.e. 3-6 HP at 8th level, 4-7 at 9th, etc. This may be done once per day.

Wholeness of body, or give him a cure spell-like ability.

F. The ability to speak with plants as druids do. This power is attained at 8th level.

Speak with plants as spell-like ability?

G. Beguiling, charms, hypnosis, and suggestion spells have only a 50% chance of affecting a monk of the 9th level of experience. That is, the monk is 50% resistant to such magic. This resistance increases 5% per level thereafter, so that at 10th level such spells have but a 45% chance of affecting the monk, 40% at 11th level, and so on. Saving throws apply if resistance fails.

+X bonus on saves vs. mind-affecting effects?

H. Telepathic and mind blast attacks (see ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, MONSTER MANUAL, Mind Flayer) upon a monk of 10th or higher level are made as if the character had an 18 intelligence, due to the monk's mental discipline.”

Psionic resistance?

 

[BOZ]

Although it should seem obvious, you might want to state that he automatically succeeds on any Strength check. Since smashing a building is considered attacking an object, should he be allowed to do it in combat

i rewrote his two strength-based powers as this. does that cover what we need from him?

Feat of Strength (Su): Atlas gains an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to (X). Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable X per day.

Unlimited Strength (Su): While on the Material Plane, Atlas can perform seeming impossible feats of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats. He automatically succeeds on any Strength check to perform such feats. This ability cannot be used during combat.

and as to the other stuff, i'll deal with that when i have a moment.

 

[BOZ]

From what shade suggested, I’m thinking of keeping only the feats (some bonus, some not), the spell-like abilities, and these two:

Evasion (Ex): If Atlas makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. If helpless, Atlas does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Wholeness of Body (Su): Atlas can heal his own wounds. He can heal 41 hit points of damage each day, and he can spread this healing out among several uses.

 

[BOZ]

Another thing to work on:

Ok, here are the base spell-likes we decided on, plus the “evil-only” ones added in.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Should we remove any for Atlas?

What additions to this list would be best? Obviously, bull’s strength and other spells from the Strength domain (especially enlarge person and righteous might) would make good additions. We could also include speak with animals, speak with plants and nondetection and/or mind blank as suggested by Shade above.

 

[Shade]

Hmmm...seeing that Atlas had no spellcaster class levels in his 1E incarnation, I could see giving him only a few strength-related and standard abilities and dumping the rest. From the original list, I'd keep plane shift (I think all should have this), Bigby's crushing hand (strength-related), greater teleport (again, all should have this, IMO), greater dispel magic (to remove pesky magic so he can smash things ), and protection from energy (for no particular reason).

I'd add those from the Strength domain as you suggested. Any of the Bigby's hand spells work well with his overall theme.

 

[Clifford]

atlas

ok why dose atlas have monk abilities? I mean heck shouldent he have a buncg of feats to mimick his hand to hand Prowes?

Also an idea for his strength. Maybe because of his ability to smash anything he should have something like: Atlas meets every requirement when peircing Damage reduction of any kind and ignores the hardness of objects.

Cliff