D&D 5E Convince me that the Ranger is a necessary Class.

[Vaalingrade]

You cannot play off type without there being a type and off type to begin with. You can pretend, but you won't actually be doing it. The mechanical penalty and mechanical bonuses together create a type and off type.

You can have a type through something meaningful like description and actual features. All a malus does is discourage people from playing a certain way if they care about mechanics.

If every race has floating bonuses, every race becomes identical in that regard. That's a move towards blandness and homogenization. You've gone from distinct differences to sameness in a category.

Much like +X items, there is no flavor to make bland in species ability bonuses and maluses.

Then it's a good thing I never did that. I made no assertion about real world people and those are the only people that exist. Different pretend species are not people at all. They are figments of imagination.

We all know what the issue is. playing the 'pretend people' card doesn't make it go away.

No there aren't. There are stats that are more useful to your subjective preferences. If you value higher AC, dex saves, etc. over knowledge, then dex is the god stat. If you value knowledge over higher AC, dex saves, etc., then int is the god stat. If you value higher hit points and con saves over those two, con is the god stat.

Dex being called the god stat only applies to people who subjectively value those things dex modifies.

Or people who actually look at how the stats work in the game.

And species A is stronger than species B. It equals out. If both species are simultaneous superior and inferior to one another equally, then it's.........................equal.

Unless you can prove that intelligence is objectively superior to strength or strength is objectively superior to intelligence(and you cannot), then equality exists.

I specifically said in any way the mattered.

You misunderstand. In real life it's wrong because it's all subjective here as well. Some value strength over smarts, and others smarts over strength? Who is right? Objectively no one. Just like in the game.

No, in anywhere ever saying a group of people are inherently smarter by dint of birth is terrible. Just like in the game.

The primary difference is that here in the real world there are people. In the game there are not.

Again 'it's just a game' isn't as good a fig leaf as you think it is.

Okay. So change the lore. The core books have dozens of mentions of slavery? If you're okay with that, keep it. If you aren't, remove it. It's just lore.

It's subtext that's being made text. Loud, clear text.

 

[Maxperson]

You can have a type through something meaningful like description and actual features. All a malus does is discourage people from playing a certain way if they care about mechanics.

Description doesn't create a type. Mechanics and lore have to match up or there is a disconnect. If the lore says most elves are wizards and are rarely fighters, but the mechanics do nothing to back that lore up, then there is a problem. There's no reason for the lore to exist the way it does and players aren't generally going to follow it. They have no incentive to.

Much like +X items, there is no flavor to make bland in species ability bonuses and maluses.

+X items are like floating bonuses. Generic and boring. A sword that gives you +2 to dex is more interesting.

We all know what the issue is. playing the 'pretend people' card doesn't make it go away.

There is no issue. With specific stat bonuses and penalties there is no superiority or inferiority between the fantasy races. It doesn't exist.

Or people who actually look at how the stats work in the game.

Yes, based on their subjective preferences.

I specifically said in any way the mattered.

Sure, but that's just a generic declaration with nothing to back it up. I can also declare that they are equal in every way that matters with nothing to back it up. I'm not, though.

I'm showing you that there is no such thing as a superior or inferior stat in D&D. Subjective preference doesn't make dex superior to int, and it can only be superior if you subjectively prefer what dex gives over what int, con, str, cha or wis give, and then it's only superior for you, not in any objective sense.

No, in anywhere ever saying a group of people are inherently smarter by dint of birth is terrible. Just like in the game.

In the real world it isn't true, though. It was and is an excuse for discrimination and abuse. That is not the case in D&D unless an individual table makes it that way for some reason.

It's subtext that's being made text. Loud, clear text.

So let's remove all wrongs that cause offense in the real world from the game. No assault. No killing. No theft. No insults. No bullying(and PCs bully a LOT). Once we remove anything and everything that can be or is offensive in the real world, the game will be lots of fun to play.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I remember 3.5, which made it impossiblew to play against the type with that horible design you're defending. You needed to optimize to maximum to offset the penalties and curveballs the game threw at you in character creation to punish you for not doing "optimal choice", and you were always only mediocre and never as good as the "optimal choice", which always ended defeating entire point because your charater could never prove Orcs are as capable of being wizards as humans - you obiectively never could be as good wizard as a human.

I don't know about that. I'm sure some orcs in 3.5 were better wizards than some humans.

 

[Horwath]

Meh, we just keep the ASIs as they were meant to be, where some races are smarter, stronger, faster, etc. than others.

if you remove ability scores from attack, damage, AC and DC I agree 100%

use ability scores for ability CHECKS(skills) only.

replace ability modifier from ALL attacks, damage, AC, DC and uses per long/short rest with proficiency modifier and you can have +/- 4 racial modifiers without any problems.

 

[CreamCloud0]

WRT racial bonus I don't like penalties and I do like being able to move them around. Adventurers are unique so while most Orcs might be strong and dumb in your game world and maybe NPCs even align with that stereotype to a fault, but your PC is unique and could be an outlier that was weak and smart.

If we really want to open a can of worms; should we go back to gender-specific bonuses and caps like in 1E? I mean it is all about Verisimilitude right?

The bolded is what your character stat assignment is for, but funnily enough, your species ASI is determined by and represents something inherent about your species, your orc wizard with higher than average INT for an orc but still incorporating the -1 is still an outlier.

 

[Horwath]

If we really want to open a can of worms; should we go back to gender-specific bonuses and caps like in 1E? I mean it is all about Verisimilitude right?

If and only if ability scores are only used for ability checks and nothing else.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Turtles aren't people. Nor are chimps.

then what are Tortles if not exactly that: turtles who are also people? and Hadozee might not be chimps precisely but they're prominently simian in nature.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I understand the gameplay reasons for not having species tied ASIs but it also seems weird and gamey to me that all these different species just happen to have the exact same range of capability in all these areas. Granted, the strength is the biggest issue for me, as small species being just as strong as bigger ones seems just really silly to me. The rest is way less jarring.

 

[Mecheon]

then what are Tortles if not exactly that: turtles who are also people? and Hadozee might not be chimps precisely but they're prominently simian in nature.

Tortles are a fictional species who can talk and walk around, they're people. Same with hadozee.

They're not the real life beings of turtles and chimpanzees

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Tortles are a fictional species who can talk and walk around, they're people. Same with hadozee.

They're not the real life beings of turtles and chimpanzees

But they also are not humans. Are we allowed in fiction to imagine sapient species with capabilities different than those of a human?