Core Only Gish?
- Thread starter Moonstone Spider
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Stay as a single class Bard, do not multi-class it is not needed.
You will have a good chance to live, because the Bard is the master of unconventional (in D&D) terms warfare.
Max out Charisma, try to have as high of Dex as possible, use your wealth to buy stat boosters of those items.
Racewise I would go with Half Elf.
Skill Focus: Perform and Improved Initiative are musts. You want to go first. Max out UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff. Make sure to get all the possible synergies from 5 ranks in skills like Sense Motive, Bluff, Knowledge Nobility, these will pump your Diplomacy score through the roof.
1st round of combat: Use your Fascinate ability. You may be able to effect all of the other combatants dependent on the arena shape, and wether they make their saving throws. The DC is based off your Perform skill, so make sure you have a Masterwork Instrument to set the DC as high as possible.
Now use your Suggestion, Bard Ability. Something like "attack bob, then billy, but not me". Keep in mind the only limitation to Suggestion is the request has to sound reasonable, and be not obviously harmful. This is where Diplomacy comes in, and 'roll playing'. Dont ask for the moon when using the Suggestion, but since clearly the players on the receiving end are going to say their characters dont find any request as reasonable, ask the DM for an Opposed Diplomacy versus Sense Motive check.
You Diplomacy is going to be sky high.
You will come very near to wining the battle here. Keep in mind anyone who makes the Fascinate saving throw is immune to it for 24 hours. Have those that failed the saving throw attack those that made the saving throw.
Combat Buff wise Rage coupled with the +4 to hit/damage from Inspire Courage & the +2 to hit from Inspire Greatness and the +4 to saving throws and AC from Inspire Heroics, and you should be fine in the Melee department. It will take you a few rounds to get all these up, but Bards can buy themselves time.
You do not even have to resort to melee as the first option. With your maxed out Use Magic Device, have some scrolls of Dominate Monster on hand, make the other fight for you.
I would also learn alot of languages. A cheap tactic is to try to befriend other people's Summoned Monsters. You can use a quick Diplomacy check on NPCs with a minus 10 to the check score. The DC to outright subvert a Summoned Monster assuming you speak it's language will be DC 60.
Assuming you are a Half Elf, with the Negotiator Feat and Skill Focus: Diplomacy, and all the synergies bonuses, you should have around a 40 Diplomacy, so you can make it in one shot if you roll a 20. More than likely you will be spending a round to make it friendly, and then another round to make it helpful.
If you go the controller route, you should win the battle easily, and with style, which is the essence of the Bard.
Monks and Paladins will be tough to control, kill them first.
You will have a good chance to live, because the Bard is the master of unconventional (in D&D) terms warfare.
Max out Charisma, try to have as high of Dex as possible, use your wealth to buy stat boosters of those items.
Racewise I would go with Half Elf.
Skill Focus: Perform and Improved Initiative are musts. You want to go first. Max out UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff. Make sure to get all the possible synergies from 5 ranks in skills like Sense Motive, Bluff, Knowledge Nobility, these will pump your Diplomacy score through the roof.
1st round of combat: Use your Fascinate ability. You may be able to effect all of the other combatants dependent on the arena shape, and wether they make their saving throws. The DC is based off your Perform skill, so make sure you have a Masterwork Instrument to set the DC as high as possible.
Now use your Suggestion, Bard Ability. Something like "attack bob, then billy, but not me". Keep in mind the only limitation to Suggestion is the request has to sound reasonable, and be not obviously harmful. This is where Diplomacy comes in, and 'roll playing'. Dont ask for the moon when using the Suggestion, but since clearly the players on the receiving end are going to say their characters dont find any request as reasonable, ask the DM for an Opposed Diplomacy versus Sense Motive check.
You Diplomacy is going to be sky high.
You will come very near to wining the battle here. Keep in mind anyone who makes the Fascinate saving throw is immune to it for 24 hours. Have those that failed the saving throw attack those that made the saving throw.
Combat Buff wise Rage coupled with the +4 to hit/damage from Inspire Courage & the +2 to hit from Inspire Greatness and the +4 to saving throws and AC from Inspire Heroics, and you should be fine in the Melee department. It will take you a few rounds to get all these up, but Bards can buy themselves time.
You do not even have to resort to melee as the first option. With your maxed out Use Magic Device, have some scrolls of Dominate Monster on hand, make the other fight for you.
I would also learn alot of languages. A cheap tactic is to try to befriend other people's Summoned Monsters. You can use a quick Diplomacy check on NPCs with a minus 10 to the check score. The DC to outright subvert a Summoned Monster assuming you speak it's language will be DC 60.
Assuming you are a Half Elf, with the Negotiator Feat and Skill Focus: Diplomacy, and all the synergies bonuses, you should have around a 40 Diplomacy, so you can make it in one shot if you roll a 20. More than likely you will be spending a round to make it friendly, and then another round to make it helpful.
If you go the controller route, you should win the battle easily, and with style, which is the essence of the Bard.
Monks and Paladins will be tough to control, kill them first.
Last edited:
Henry
Autoexreginated
I dislike the term "gish", too (reminds me of this woman) but let's not get hung up on it, ladies and gents.
If you're married to the warrior-mage idea, I can't help much, but otherwise, if going for strict powermongering SRD, I would go with one of three things:
1) Druid, with emphasis on buffing up for combat with spells and then attacking (you come with your own healing, then)
2) Cleric with Archery capabilities (a cleric is a hellishly good archer, with the right feats and buffs, I'm told)
3) Psion (kineticist). Thanee can attest,
a Psion is damned strong compared to some of the core PHB material. AND, as you noted, it is in the SRD.
If you're married to the warrior-mage idea, I can't help much, but otherwise, if going for strict powermongering SRD, I would go with one of three things:
1) Druid, with emphasis on buffing up for combat with spells and then attacking (you come with your own healing, then)
2) Cleric with Archery capabilities (a cleric is a hellishly good archer, with the right feats and buffs, I'm told)
3) Psion (kineticist). Thanee can attest,
a Psion is damned strong compared to some of the core PHB material. AND, as you noted, it is in the SRD.Halfling Paladin 2/Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 8
The Halfling and Paladin give you good bonuses to your saves. You've got 6th level spells and are on the way to 9th level spells if you finish out Eldritch Knight and then start on Archmage for the final 3 levels. Sure you don't quite hit the 4 attack threshhold but 9th level spells a slightly better.
It's core problems are that there are really no good dump stats and melee damage is reduced.
The Halfling and Paladin give you good bonuses to your saves. You've got 6th level spells and are on the way to 9th level spells if you finish out Eldritch Knight and then start on Archmage for the final 3 levels. Sure you don't quite hit the 4 attack threshhold but 9th level spells a slightly better.
It's core problems are that there are really no good dump stats and melee damage is reduced.
I'd be thinking Cleric3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge 9 .
A straight 15th level wizard caster (maybe some loremaster and/or archmage thrown in) could also work. You loose some versatility compared to the theurge, but you won't have as many abilities to keep track of.
Tactics: Load up on buff spells - 10 min/level ones should last for an entire "dungeon" and even 1 min/level spells could last for more than one fight. Ring of counterspells, mirror image, invisibility and spell turning can protect you from targeted dispels. Use polymorph to crank up your strength and AC. (Annis hag, treant, stone giant or fire giant.) Get Power Attack to make sure your attacks deal serious damage. Buy lots of AC items and consider getting the Combat Expertise feat.
(BTW I like "melee mage" instead of "gish".)
A straight 15th level wizard caster (maybe some loremaster and/or archmage thrown in) could also work. You loose some versatility compared to the theurge, but you won't have as many abilities to keep track of.
Tactics: Load up on buff spells - 10 min/level ones should last for an entire "dungeon" and even 1 min/level spells could last for more than one fight. Ring of counterspells, mirror image, invisibility and spell turning can protect you from targeted dispels. Use polymorph to crank up your strength and AC. (Annis hag, treant, stone giant or fire giant.) Get Power Attack to make sure your attacks deal serious damage. Buy lots of AC items and consider getting the Combat Expertise feat.
(BTW I like "melee mage" instead of "gish".)
Thanee said:
It's impossible to go Paladin/Sorceror and get the 4th attack and 9th level spells at 20th level.
You can go Paladin 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10 and get the 4th attack and also make 9th level spells. The divine grace ability given to 2nd level paladins + a cloak of charisma+6 can really go a long way towards reducing the reflex save vulnerability of a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight.
But like I said it forces the character to have no real dump stat.
RangerWickett
Legend
At 20th level, the 4th attack ain't that important. And 9th level spells aren't crucial either. If you really need anything, get a scroll of it.
Also, if you're a sorcerer you can spontaneously use still spell on everything you cast. Be a mounted halfling paladin 2/sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 7, ride a griffon so you don't need to worry about mobility, and have a high Concentration check so you won't have to worry about casting while mounted.
Also, if you're a sorcerer you can spontaneously use still spell on everything you cast. Be a mounted halfling paladin 2/sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 7, ride a griffon so you don't need to worry about mobility, and have a high Concentration check so you won't have to worry about casting while mounted.
RangerWickett said:
I'm confused assuming core SRD casting still spell on everything means using full round casting and sacrificing higher spell slots. Considering that you will lack 7th or 8th level spells (which a single classed wizard will have at 15th level) it seems that you are sacrificing a good amount of spell power.
In contrast the Paladin 2/Wizard 5(Specialist)/ Eldritch Knight 8 has access to 7th level spells and has a better BaB.
