Core Prestige Classes

FWIW, I debated putting Geomancer in my last post, but opted not to because its concept (and execution for that matter) just feel a bit more out there to me than the Arcane Hierophant.

Assuming no particular space limitations, why not both Danny?
-blarg
 

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It may be counter to the predominant opinion on the matter, but I wouldn't include ANY of the hybrid PrCls, at least not those like the various Thaumaturges and so forth. I simply don't like them on a meta level.

The various hybrids are a multiclass fix - in a party of 16th level characters, the Wizard-8/Cleric-8 is excess baggage, while the Wizard-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-10 is a viable character. Most Hybrid classes are like that (except when you try to apply them to a PrC with it's own spellcasting progression, or find an early entry method). What, specifically, do you not like about them?
 

If you were going to have prestige classes, and use them. . .

Hybrids to cover all the major bases, except perhaps for those base classes that may as well be hybrids themselves (e.g., Ranger and Paladin.) In fact, those should either not exist or be PrCs, in 'my' hypothetical version of 3.5.

Then yeah, I'd go for ultra-specialists. So my list would be like blargney's, only with more of each. Nothing else though. If a prestige class is 'needed' to take a character in a totally different direction, my belief is that a base class should've catered to that, in the first place.

I see PrCs as natural progressions, things that build on what has come before.
 

FWIW, I debated putting Geomancer in my last post, but opted not to because its concept (and execution for that matter) just feel a bit more out there to me than the Arcane Hierophant.

Assuming no particular space limitations, why not both Danny?
-blarg

and
The various hybrids are a multiclass fix - in a party of 16th level characters, the Wizard-8/Cleric-8 is excess baggage, while the Wizard-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-10 is a viable character. Most Hybrid classes are like that (except when you try to apply them to a PrC with it's own spellcasting progression, or find an early entry method). What, specifically, do you not like about them?

I don't care about "viability," and I don't think multiclassing needs that kind of fix. What some see as a bug, I see as a feature. If a PC chooses to divide his time between multiple classes, he will- and should- miss out on his class' higher-level abilities. Even...no especially top-level spellcasting. Thus to me, the "Theurge" classes seem to be a bit of a cheat, for lack of a better word. To this day, I haven't played one.

Those classes also seem unimaginative to me- designed for the purely mechanical reason of appeasing those who dislike what multiclassing does to spellcasters. Coupled with the "Practiced _____________" feats, there is almost no downside to multiclassing a spellcaster.

I'm not saying this is "badwrongfun," just that it isn't to my taste. I understand that multiclassing without the Theurge classes could present logistical challenges to both partymates and DMs alike.

Still, whose business is it if I wish to play a Wiz8/Clc8? Its my PC, and I'm probably running him that way for a reason. If this is an issue with the other players, the player with the multiclassed PC could find a way to carry his weight more, or find a game with players who don't care what someone else is playing.

The Geomancer, OTOH, does things few other PrCls do. It introduces new mechanics- Drift. (I like Drift so much, I use it for my hombrewed Fey hybrids...and it stacks w/Geomancer's Drift.) It changes the PC in ways mere multiclassing cannot. Notably, it also allows the PC to mix his class abilities in ways that are most advantageous to him, like armored spellcasting.

Imagine if the "Theurge" classes had been designed that way- the Mystic would ignore ASF for certain spells. The Cerebromancer could use Psi points to power spells. The Eldritch Theurge might be able to deliver certain spells with his blast. And so forth. While denied the pinnacle of power that their solo-classed bretheren achieve, they would instead learn exotic techniques and achieve flexibility that their more focused colleagues would envy.
 

Yeah, Geomancer isn't so much a hybrid PrC as a transformational one. There are others like it too, so it's probably worth a new classification. Hybrid, specialist, and transformational should cover most of the bases.

What other nifty transformation PrCs are there? Green Star Adept, and I'm sure there are more.
 

To me, the Transformational or Organizational PrCls (like the Red Wizards or Harpers) are the best- not neccessarily in terms of mechanics, but in conceptualization. They really look like something that has...exclusivity.

That's why I also like the Horizon Walker from the DMG. Its execution isn't neccessarily the best, but I like the idea.

Like the Geomancer, the Heirophant is also transformational, as is the Dragon Disciple and the Shadowdancer (which I wish had been updated in the Shadow Magic section of the Tome of Magic). All give abilities that you can't get any other way.

In DCv1, there is the Force Missile Adept, which, like the Argent Savant, takes a small area of a spellcasters repetoir- really, just a few spells- and expands it greatly. In that, they make a great template for other potential PrCls. Coupled with some of the reserve feats, they can be quite nice and flavorful.
 

BTW: A Shou Disciple is proficient with Lt Armors and no shields, and expressly gets to use its FoB and other martial arts skills when wearing Light armor, and loses it with heavier armors or shields.

And Monk & Shoul Disciple levels stack for most purposes.

There is, however, no language what happens when a Monk with levels in Shou Disciple uses Light Armor- as in, does he get to use all of his levels of FoB in armor, or only his Shou Disciple ones?

I, for one, opt for the former- I see the Shou Disciple's Lt Armor proficiency as a class feature that could just as easily be named "Armored Monk."
 

Thanks for the replies, this is the list I have so far from you:

Abjurant Champion
Arcane Hierophant
Archmage
Argent Savant
Atavist
Beastmaster
Dragon Disciple
Exemplar
Exotic Weapon Master
Fochluchan Lyrist
Force Missile Adept
Geomancer
Harper
Horizon Walker
Kensai
Lucid Cenobite
Malconvoker
Master of Many Forms
Order of the Bow Initiate
Rage Mage
Red Wizard
Shadowdancer
Shiba Protector
Shou Disciple
Tempest
Ultimate Magus
Warchanter
 

and


I don't care about "viability," and I don't think multiclassing needs that kind of fix. What some see as a bug, I see as a feature. If a PC chooses to divide his time between multiple classes, he will- and should- miss out on his class' higher-level abilities. Even...no especially top-level spellcasting. Thus to me, the "Theurge" classes seem to be a bit of a cheat, for lack of a better word. To this day, I haven't played one.
They do miss out (barring early-entry tricks or applying MT advancement to rapid-advancement PrC's such as the Ur-Priest). The Cleric-3/Wizard-3/Mystic Theurge-9 is a 15th level character, casting 6th level spells - when the equivalent Cleric-15 or Wizard-15 would be casting 8th level spells. At Mystic Theurge-10 (character level 16), the MT finally gets 7th level spells, while the pure caster is working on 8th level spells. The Mystic Theurge is generally three class levels (1.5 spell levels) behind; four class levels (2 full spell levels) when using spontaneous base classes such as the Sorcerer or the Favored Soul. They also miss out on Wizard Bonus feats, Clerical turning, familiar advancement, and so on (with exceptions for some of the later hybrid PrC's). It's only when the Mystic Theurge hits 20th level that he FINALLY gets a 9th level spell slot - and that's only in one of the two classes (MT is only 10 levels). Spontaneous caster base classes don't get 9th level spells with a Mystic Theurge until epic levels.
Those classes also seem unimaginative to me- designed for the purely mechanical reason of appeasing those who dislike what multiclassing does to spellcasters. Coupled with the "Practiced _____________" feats, there is almost no downside to multiclassing a spellcaster.
Reduced spell access hurts (it really, really bites when the divine caster in the party doesn't have the ability to prepare the "day after" spell to fix the penalties from the ability-drain monsters you ran across the day before), and feats are fairly valuable because you get so few of them.

Also, it's mostly only the initial hybrid PrC's that were as vanilla as you're claiming here - the Arcane Hierophant (Druid/Arcanist), Fochlucan Lyrist (Druid/Rogue/Bard mix), Green Whisperer (Druid/Bard), Ultimate Magus (Wizard/Sorcerer), Abjurant Champion (melee/arcanist, although it's possible for a pure caster to eventually qualify), Arcane Trickster (Wizard/Rogue), and so on do gain actual class abilities that often involve mixing aspects of the two base classes.
I'm not saying this is "badwrongfun," just that it isn't to my taste. I understand that multiclassing without the Theurge classes could present logistical challenges to both partymates and DMs alike.

Still, whose business is it if I wish to play a Wiz8/Clc8? Its my PC, and I'm probably running him that way for a reason. If this is an issue with the other players, the player with the multiclassed PC could find a way to carry his weight more, or find a game with players who don't care what someone else is playing.
... except that we're not talking about your PC - we're talking about the PrC's that "ought" to be included in Core. It's not a matter of "whose business is it if I wish to play a Wiz8/Clc8?" it's closer to a matter of "should the Mystic Theurge, and other dual-progression classes, be permitted?"

It's HARD to build a fully split character (Wizard-8/Cleric-8, to use your listing) that can keep up with a pure-classed caster one or two levels lower in total ECL (e.g., a Cleric-14 or a Wizard-14). Other than ones that use really cheesy tricks, I honestly do not think I've ever seen a build that could. Can you make one?
The Geomancer, OTOH, does things few other PrCls do. It introduces new mechanics- Drift. (I like Drift so much, I use it for my hombrewed Fey hybrids...and it stacks w/Geomancer's Drift.) It changes the PC in ways mere multiclassing cannot. Notably, it also allows the PC to mix his class abilities in ways that are most advantageous to him, like armored spellcasting.
The Geomancer isn't really a hybrid PrC - it requires both arcane and divine spells, but it only advances one side of them on any given level.
Imagine if the "Theurge" classes had been designed that way- the Mystic would ignore ASF for certain spells. The Cerebromancer could use Psi points to power spells. The Eldritch Theurge might be able to deliver certain spells with his blast. And so forth. While denied the pinnacle of power that their solo-classed bretheren achieve, they would instead learn exotic techniques and achieve flexibility that their more focused colleagues would envy.
Most of them do that sort of thing - they ARE behind on the pinnacle of power (generally by 1.5 spell levels), and other than the base hybrids in the DMG, most of them do get "mix" abilities to some degree or another.

Or, to put it another way, as nearly as I can tell, most of your objections don't really apply at all, and the ones that do only apply to a relative handful of the hybrid PrC's.
 

Or, to put it another way, as nearly as I can tell, most of your objections don't really apply at all, and the ones that do only apply to a relative handful of the hybrid PrC's.

Actually, ALL of my objections apply- I think that the level lag in the theurge classes is not big enough. The theurge classes, IMHO, are too generous.

As you said: "The Geomancer isn't really a hybrid PrC - it requires both arcane and divine spells, but it only advances one side of them on any given level. "

THAT is a model for hybrid classes I prefer- one that does not advance 2 spellcasting classes simultaneously. I also like those that have unique spell lists...though they ought to be a bit more transparent, for instance, by letting caster levels stack. That would almost obviate the "necessity" for Feats like Practiced Spellcaster.

It's HARD to build a fully split character (Wizard-8/Cleric-8, to use your listing) that can keep up with a pure-classed caster one or two levels lower in total ECL (e.g., a Cleric-14 or a Wizard-14). Other than ones that use really cheesy tricks, I honestly do not think I've ever seen a build that could. Can you make one?

No, and like I said, I don't think there should be a way to do so.

Multiclassing is- or at least should be- a decision based on the roleplaying aspects of the PC, not the mechanics of the game. IOW, a PC who multiclasses Wiz8/Clc8/who knows what else4 isn't bemoaning that he can't keep up with a Wiz20 or Clc20 in raw power. He's celebrating living up to his own internal drives.
 

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