Core Prestige Classes

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks for the replies, this is the list I have so far from you:

Abjurant Champion
Arcane Hierophant
Archmage
Argent Savant
Atavist
Beastmaster
Dragon Disciple
Exemplar
Exotic Weapon Master
Fochluchan Lyrist
Force Missile Adept
Geomancer
Harper
Horizon Walker
Kensai
Lucid Cenobite
Malconvoker
Master of Many Forms
Order of the Bow Initiate
Rage Mage
Red Wizard
Shadowdancer
Shiba Protector
Shou Disciple
Tempest
Ultimate Magus
Warchanter

Of those, I have to say its an interesting list...

Some, like the Exotic Weapon Master I find a bit underwhelming. I've frequently played PCs with exotic weapons, but I've never played an EWM. None of their abilities ever fit what I wanted my PCs to do.

Several, like the Red Wizard, I think should have been expanded into almost a template of sorts- a way to show DMs how to make their own Wizardly PrCls with style and substance.

Ditto the Abjurant Champion. I could see that being a template for different PrCls.

I'd like to add the Tattooed Monk to the list. Its not perfect, but it is one of the few PrCls that play off the relatively common trope of a being with magical tattoos. The one major change I'd make is open the class up like the Shou Disciple- letting it stack with the Monk, but not having Monk levels be a prereq.

(Footnote- I'd probably make a few other changes with any PrCl intended for use with monks, namely allowing for free multiclassing with the Monk and the PrCl, and not making Monk a prereq- just a combination of particular PC attributes- again, like the Shou Disciple.)

 

[blargney the second]

A few more additions in the specialist category: Cavalier, Tactical Soldier, Nightsong Enforcer, Master of Masks, Grey Guard, Holy Liberator, Divine Oracle, and Warpriest.

With those added, that should give at least a couple of options for each of the base classes.
-blarg

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'd add the Halfling Outrider...as just the Outrider- there are so few PrCls that directly apply to mounted warriors.

I'd probably include the Assassin and Ghost-Face Killer, but reducing their alignment requirement to "any non-good."

Ah- a few others that specifically improve the SoulKnife: The Soul Bow (CompPsi- making them credible ranged threats), Illumine Soul (CompPsi- making them quasi-paladins), Blade Manifester (Hyperconscious- combining PsyWar and Soulknife elements).

Also for psionics, I'd include the Kineticists- not just the Pyro, but the full writeups implied by the Mind's Eye...and one of which (the Cryo) wound up in Frostburn.

 

[Jack Simth]

Actually, ALL of my objections apply- I think that the level lag in the theurge classes is not big enough. The theurge classes, IMHO, are too generous.

Ask any decent optimizer - you don't take theurge classes unless you're arranging for early entry (e.g., Precocious Apprentice for a Wizard-1/Psion-3/Cerebremancer-X) or applying them to a PrC with it's own advancement (e.g., the Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge (Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-X). Being 1 or 2 spell levels behind is painful from an optimization standpoint. Barring that type of thing, the only reasons to take a Theurge class are RP or an unusually mixed party (e.g., you need to fill both arcanist and healer roles, as the party is otherwise lacking both).

As you said: "The Geomancer isn't really a hybrid PrC - it requires both arcane and divine spells, but it only advances one side of them on any given level. "

THAT is a model for hybrid classes I prefer- one that does not advance 2 spellcasting classes simultaneously. I also like those that have unique spell lists...though they ought to be a bit more transparent, for instance, by letting caster levels stack. That would almost obviate the "necessity" for Feats like Practiced Spellcaster.



No, and like I said, I don't think there should be a way to do so.

Multiclassing is- or at least should be- a decision based on the roleplaying aspects of the PC, not the mechanics of the game. IOW, a PC who multiclasses Wiz8/Clc8/who knows what else4 isn't bemoaning that he can't keep up with a Wiz20 or Clc20 in raw power. He's celebrating living up to his own internal drives.

... so you're saying that you shouldn't be able to make certain types of character concepts viable. I'm guessing you dislike the Vow of Poverty as well?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ask any decent optimizer...

I don't care about mechanical optimization. At all.

so you're saying that you shouldn't be able to make certain types of character concepts viable.

See above. To me, "viability" is a non-issue. If your concept is a "Warrior Mage Priest," so be it, but don't complain to me that the PC build is suboptimal because he can't get meaningful access to higher-level spells.

I'm guessing you dislike the Vow of Poverty as well?

Actually, I LOVE VoP, but I don't run it RAW- I don't exclude Holy Symbols from the list of equipment allowed. If you want to discuss my rationale for that, I have a couple of huge posts in VoP threads elsewhere.

 

[blargney the second]

Transformational: Chameleon!

 

[Jack Simth]

I don't care about mechanical optimization. At all.



See above. To me, "viability" is a non-issue. If your concept is a "Warrior Mage Priest," so be it, but don't complain to me that the PC build is suboptimal because he can't get meaningful access to higher-level spells.



Actually, I LOVE VoP, but I don't run it RAW- I don't exclude Holy Symbols from the list of equipment allowed. If you want to discuss my rationale for that, I have a couple of huge posts in VoP threads elsewhere.

[devil's advocate]
Well that's silly. Voluntary poverty is supposed to be a sacrifice for the good of others. What's the sacrifice when you're getting essentially everything you'd be getting from the wealth you're giving up, especially when it's secured in a way that it can't be stolen or sundered like items can? It makes no sense. You want to play a character that gives all his wealth to the poor? Fine. Just don't complain to me that the PC build is suboptimal because he can't get meaningful bonuses that normally come from equipment. It shouldn't be a viable character just because it's a reasonably common archetype in fiction.
[/devil's advocate]

The Vow of Poverty and the assorted Theurge classes exist for essentially the same reason - the warrior/mage, divine wizard, Wizard/Thief, the Aescetic, and so on are relatively common archetypes in the fiction that the game draws from. The Vow of Poverty feat and the assorted Theurge classes all exist to make such archetypes playable in a relatively normal game. Every argument you're using against the assorted dual-progression classes applies equally well against the Vow of Poverty. If you dislike one and like the other, for the reasons you've given, you're not being internally consistent between the two.

 

[Jhaelen]

I don't care about mechanical optimization. At all.

See above. To me, "viability" is a non-issue. If your concept is a "Warrior Mage Priest," so be it, but don't complain to me that the PC build is suboptimal because he can't get meaningful access to higher-level spells.

I don't want to derail the thread more than it already is, but I'm a bit baffled by that attitude.
How do you reconcile these two statements?

Imho, either you dislike optimization and try to ensure that your players' characters will be viable without it or you encourage optimization in whatever degree necessary to allow them to survive your campaigns threat level.
Doesn't doing neither pretty much guarantee that your players will be unhappy?

In my campaign, I start by asking my players what kind of character they'd like to play and then try to help them to realize that concept with a build that is also viable. If they decide not to take my advice, that's fine, but I'll definitely warn them that they'll probably be in trouble.

I won't get out of my way to create only encounters that can be beat by a suboptimal party. Creative thinking and good preparation can go a long way. I also believe in the power of self-correcting party composition, i.e. if noone in the party want to play a healer or a tank or a mage and they don't take appropriate precautions to cover the party's weak spot characters tend to die until the roles are properly covered again.

For all multi-classing spell casters 'some' way to stay viable must be available. The loss of caster levels is a problem of the ruleset. For those who don't like prestige classes as a solution, I've proposed a system similar to the one used for ToB classes: Add half the levels of the other classes to their caster level.

 

[blargney the second]

Hybrid: Phantom Knight
-blarg

ps - In the interests of staying on topic and keeping this thread useful to the OP, could you guys fork the discussion of your personal preferences?

 

[Studio69]

Hybrid: Phantom Knight

Which book is that from?