D&D General Could A Npc be Racist towards Elven Thieves but he's willing to befriend Elves that aren't Thieves and he will tolerate Thieves that aren't Elves?


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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
None of this makes any sense, I'm sorry.

The specific combination of elven thieves, but not elf farmers or dwarf thieves just isn't even coherent.

Like it's not a believable mindset.
I don’t know, I think someone purporting not to be prejudiced toward a particular ethnic group, and generally not displaying significant concern over criminal activity except when members of that ethnic group are implicated seems (unfortunately) all too realistic. Of course it’s not a coherent worldview - racism never is.
 

JMISBEST

Explorer
I don’t know, I think someone purporting not to be prejudiced toward a particular ethnic group, and generally not displaying significant concern over criminal activity except when members of that ethnic group are implicated seems (unfortunately) all too realistic. Of course it’s not a coherent worldview - racism never is.
If my mate does use this idea would it be more coherent if the guy has reasons that, by DAD Standards, is very good, very reasonable, perfectly reasonable and completely justified?

1 example may be that the reason he hates Elven Thieves is because when very young, meaning likely 3 or 4, he or she lost all of his family and a lot of his friends to Elven Thieves that had been Outlawed

The reason he's fine with Elves that aren't Thieves is that he was saved and then raised by Elves that aren't Thieves, and I admit it likely that they were likely Rangers

The reason that he will tolerate Thieves that are Elves is that at some point during The 15 years between him being saved by and then raised by Elves and leaving to become A Adventurer he had several friends that weren't Elves that when they grew up became Thieves, which made him realize that just because, in his opinion, all Elven Thieves deserve, in his opinion, a slow painful death doesn't mean that Thieves that aren't Elves should suffer a slow painful death
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
If my mate does use this idea would it be more coherent if the guy has reasons that, by DAD Standards, is very good, very reasonable, perfectly reasonable and completely justified?

1 example may be that the reason he hates Elven Thieves is because when very young, meaning likely 3 or 4, he or she lost all of his family and a lot of his friends to Elven Thieves that had been Outlawed

The reason he's fine with Elves that aren't Thieves is that he was saved and then raised by Elves that aren't Thieves, and I admit it likely that they were likely Rangers

The reason that he will tolerate Thieves that are Elves is that at some point during The 15 years between him being saved by and then raised by Elves and leaving to become A Adventurer he had several friends that weren't Elves that when they grew up became Thieves, which made him realize that just because, in his opinion, all Elven Thieves deserve, in his opinion, a slow painful death doesn't mean that Thieves that aren't Elves should suffer a slow painful death
I'm sorry, but if you replace "elf" with any real world group (which I assume is why you're asking this), the answer is that that is racist. There's no getting round that. I assume that's the thrust of your question? Otherwise, I'm not clear what your question is. Unless you're taking the 'elves aren't real so you can't be racist towards them' stance, which is a different conversation and unfortunately one which we have a moratorium on these boards for, so let's not do that.
 

JMISBEST

Explorer
I'm sorry, but if you replace "elf" with any real world group (which I assume is why you're asking this), the answer is that that is racist. There's no getting round that. I assume that's the thrust of your question? Otherwise, I'm not clear what your question is. Unless you're taking the 'elves aren't real so you can't be racist towards them' stance, which is a different conversation and unfortunately one which we have a moratorium on these boards for, so let's not do that.
Ooops sorry but I honesty didn't realize that I was making a racist stance about elves aren't real so you can't be racist towards them. Sorry I'm not racist and sorry about breaking the moratorium on these boards about such things

I did read the rules, or does this site call them regulations? or something similiar?, I can't remember, for using this site but must have forgot about that 1, sorry I clearly made several mistakes that were both very big and completely genuine
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
If my mate does use this idea would it be more coherent if the guy has reasons that, by DAD Standards, is very good, very reasonable, perfectly reasonable and completely justified?
Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified. I think that’s an important thing to recognize when attempting to portray a fictional character as racist.
1 example may be that the reason he hates Elven Thieves is because when very young, meaning likely 3 or 4, he or she lost all of his family and a lot of his friends to Elven Thieves that had been Outlawed
It makes sense for the character to use that experience to try and justify his prejudice, sure. That would, of course, still be (fictional) racism.
The reason he's fine with Elves that aren't Thieves is that he was saved and then raised by Elves that aren't Thieves, and I admit it likely that they were likely Rangers

The reason that he will tolerate Thieves that are Elves is that at some point during The 15 years between him being saved by and then raised by Elves and leaving to become A Adventurer he had several friends that weren't Elves that when they grew up became Thieves, which made him realize that just because, in his opinion, all Elven Thieves deserve, in his opinion, a slow painful death doesn't mean that Thieves that aren't Elves should suffer a slow painful death
This hypothetical character sure seems to have a problem with essentializing groups of people based on his personal experiences with a few individuals who happen to belong to those groups. Which, again, certainly seems to be behind a lot of real-life interpersonal racism.
 

Of all the things you can be in D&D, why is this a question. Make the fiction and have fun. This does not have to perfectly map on sociological and psychological research.

This is less of a stretch than a lot of stuff in game.

The key is fun—is this something the player and group can find enjoyment in?

No weirder than a barbarian trusting a priest of pelor and despising an altruistic wizard.
 

JMISBEST

Explorer
Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified. I think that’s an important thing to recognize when attempting to portray a fictional character as racist.

It makes sense for the character to use that experience to try and justify his prejudice, sure. That would, of course, still be (fictional) racism.

This hypothetical character sure seems to have a problem with essentializing groups of people based on his personal experiences with a few individuals who happen to belong to those groups. Which, again, certainly seems to be behind a lot of real-life interpersonal racism.
I know that in real life Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified but my thinking is that just because Racism is never good, reasonable and justified in real life doesn't mean that Racism can't be Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified in DAD

The best, in my opinion, example of Racism being good, reasonable and justified in DAD is the racism between Drow and Elves that aren't Drow that has been a massive part in every DAD campaign that I've either GM'd, played in or heard about, but that could be down to the way me and every GM I know or used to know either GM or used to GM DAD
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I don’t know, I think someone purporting not to be prejudiced toward a particular ethnic group, and generally not displaying significant concern over criminal activity except when members of that ethnic group are implicated seems (unfortunately) all too realistic. Of course it’s not a coherent worldview - racism never is.
Right but that isn’t actually the mindset, it’s just what the racist person says while being racist.

Someone genuinely being non-prejudiced toward a people “unless they’re thieves”, isn’t a thing.
 

MarkB

Legend
I know that in real life Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified but my thinking is that just because Racism is never good, reasonable and justified in real life doesn't mean that Racism can't be Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified in DAD

The best, in my opinion, example of Racism being good, reasonable and justified in DAD is the racism between Drow and Elves that aren't Drow that has been a massive part in every DAD campaign that I've either GM'd, played in or heard about, but that could be down to the way me and every GM I know or used to know either GM or used to GM DAD
Except that this is very specifically an example that, over the past several years, has been called-out as seriously problematic to the extent that it's been largely abandoned and overwritten in official publications.

What purpose does it serve to include these fantasy-racism elements in your campaign? In particular, how does this weird elf-thief prejudice lead to any interesting character developments in the story you and your players are telling that is not also deeply problematic? And is there really any way that you can justify in-game racism against fantasy races or cultures that doesn't also serve as a rationale to justify real-world racism against actual races or cultures?
 

JMISBEST

Explorer
Except that this is very specifically an example that, over the past several years, has been called-out as seriously problematic to the extent that it's been largely abandoned and overwritten in official publications.

What purpose does it serve to include these fantasy-racism elements in your campaign? In particular, how does this weird elf-thief prejudice lead to any interesting character developments in the story you and your players are telling that is not also deeply problematic? And is there really any way that you can justify in-game racism against fantasy races or cultures that doesn't also serve as a rationale to justify real-world racism against actual races or cultures?
Its about A Mate and his players, if I said me and my players I made a mistake and apologize, and my mate knows his group well enough that their are several ways that can justify in-game racism against fantasy races or cultures that doesn't also serve as a rationale to justify real-world racism against actual races or cultures?

But I will admit that he's the only GM I know or have ever known that would be guaranteed to succeed at justifying in-game racism against fantasy races or cultures that doesn't also serve as a rationale to justify real-world racism against actual races or cultures, other GM's?, not any that I know
 

Omand

Hero
Its about A Mate and his players, if I said me and my players I made a mistake and apologize, and my mate knows his group well enough that their are several ways that can justify in-game racism against fantasy races or cultures that doesn't also serve as a rationale to justify real-world racism against actual races or cultures?

But I will admit that he's the only GM I know or have ever known that would be guaranteed to succeed at justifying in-game racism against fantasy races or cultures that doesn't also serve as a rationale to justify real-world racism against actual races or cultures, other GM's?, not any that I know
@JMISBEST if your mate is as good as you say he is about this, and I would have my doubts about that as playing at racism often gets you burnt, then let him deal with this.

All I am seeing in this thread, and your other threads, is you tying yourself in knots trying to justify various situations for "a friend" or "a mate." Maybe let them speak for themselves. If they need advice, recommend they visit and post here.

Also, I am very curious where you hail from. You use a great deal of UK slang, but the syntax of your posts indicates that English is likely not your native language. We are all here to enjoy D&D, but it is an English language site. If you provide more background on where you are coming from, that might help provide context and allow people to give you better answers to your posts. I know that I have struggled to understand what you are actually asking.

Cheers :)
 

JMISBEST

Explorer
@JMISBEST if your mate is as good as you say he is about this, and I would have my doubts about that as playing at racism often gets you burnt, then let him deal with this.

All I am seeing in this thread, and your other threads, is you tying yourself in knots trying to justify various situations for "a friend" or "a mate." Maybe let them speak for themselves. If they need advice, recommend they visit and post here.

Also, I am very curious where you hail from. You use a great deal of UK slang, but the syntax of your posts indicates that English is likely not your native language. We are all here to enjoy D&D, but it is an English language site. If you provide more background on where you are coming from, that might help provide context and allow people to give you better answers to your posts. I know that I have struggled to understand what you are actually asking.

Cheers :)
Sorry about the confusion I'm English and theirs a unique reason that the syntax system of my posts indicates that English isn't likely my native language

The reason is that starting back in 2,003 their was a 20 month period were I was so bored that I amused myself by creating a unique version of The Typed but not Written or Spoken versions of The English Language that only I know or will ever know and as I've been using it for just over 17 years, started making it on The 20/9/2,003, finished it on The 17//5/2,005 and its now The 23//5/2,022, that I've never managed to get out of the habit of using full time

I will freely admit that I think its very amusing to know that when I die all knowledge of the version of The Written but not Spoken English Language that took me almost 8 months to make that only I know or will ever know will die with me
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I know that in real life Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified but my thinking is that just because Racism is never good, reasonable and justified in real life doesn't mean that Racism can't be Racism is never good, reasonable, or justified in DAD
Your thinking is incorrect. It is not necessarily racist to portray racism in D&D, but that fictional racism is still bad, unreasonable, and unjust within the fiction. Trying to portray a fictional context in which racism is good, reasonable, or just, serves to normalize and perpetuate the very same narratives that racists use in real life to try to excuse their racism.
The best, in my opinion, example of Racism being good, reasonable and justified in DAD is the racism between Drow and Elves that aren't Drow that has been a massive part in every DAD campaign that I've either GM'd, played in or heard about, but that could be down to the way me and every GM I know or used to know either GM or used to GM DAD
No, racism against drow is not good, reasonable, or justified within D&D. The fiction is full of examples of drow who are not evil, so hatred towards them on account of their race alone is demonstrably not justified, even within the fiction. And removing those examples in order to make all drow inherently evil would be a case of setting the fiction up to justify racism. It’s taking the exact excuses racists use for their hatred and saying “let’s imagine a world where those excuses are actually valid. You know, for fun.”
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Sorry about the confusion I'm English and theirs a unique reason that the syntax system of my posts indicates that English isn't likely my native language

The reason is that starting back in 2,003 their was a 20 month period were I was so bored that I amused myself by creating a unique version of The Typed but not Written or Spoken versions of The English Language that only I know or will ever know and as I've been using it for just over 17 years, started making it on The 20/9/2,003, finished it on The 17//5/2,005 and its now The 23//5/2,022, that I've never managed to get out of the habit of using full time

I will freely admit that I think its very amusing to know that when I die all knowledge of the version of The Written but not Spoken English Language that took me almost 8 months to make that only I know or will ever know will die with me
Wait, what? How did you get into the habit of using this language full-time in the first place if no one else knows it?
 

Sorry about the confusion I'm English and theirs a unique reason that the syntax system of my posts indicates that English isn't likely my native language

The reason is that starting back in 2,003 their was a 20 month period were I was so bored that I amused myself by creating a unique version of The Typed but not Written or Spoken versions of The English Language that only I know or will ever know and as I've been using it for just over 17 years, started making it on The 20/9/2,003, finished it on The 17//5/2,005 and its now The 23//5/2,022, that I've never managed to get out of the habit of using full time

I will freely admit that I think its very amusing to know that when I die all knowledge of the version of The Written but not Spoken English Language that took me almost 8 months to make that only I know or will ever know will die with me

That's not creating anything, it's just communicating poorly.
 


Yeah, I see your point, but the fact that you cited only fictional communities made me wonder if there are real world antecedents, where people who are not thieves are ok with people who are thieves. At first I thought of Brown's Park (NW Colorado) in the late 19th Century, but my understanding is that they were basically all thieves to varying degrees.
In a story, you can clearly see someone like Robin Hood as a hero, despite being a thief. IRL history is written by the winners, who apply the "hero" and "villain" titles we see instead. For example, the difference between a pirate and privateer was often which country's letter of marque you accepted as legitimate.
 

All flavors of bigotry are possible. But to make it a potentially interesting character trait that reads as believable you have to figure out the narrative he tells himself for why thieves are okay, and elves are okay, but elven thieves are scum.

Perhaps he had a bad run in with an elven thieves guild and his reasonable caution that any elven thief he meets might be an agent of that guild come to exact retribution has morphed over the years into bigotry towards all elven thieves.
 

aco175

Legend
Elves should be held to a higher standard than just thieves. Leave pickpocketing and horse stealing to the halflings and dwarves. Nobody expects them to be any better. Elves should aspire to be assassins and masterminds. I can overlook being a 'thief' in a human or orc, but not an elf, that would be beneath him.

Nope, still sounds like racism.
 

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