D&D 5E Counterspell what do people think?

[WaterRabbit]

We started playing 5e about a year ago and have had two campaigns. I'm two for two on multiple members with the spell. As for your assumption that 6 wizards don't have the spell among them, well, it's far more likely that all 6 will have it than none of them.

[/QUOTE]


So in your experience which isn't a general experience. It has nothing to do with my assumptions. You can just as easily as I look at how common casters that have the possibility of casting counterspell is compared to the number of classes that cannot in general play. It would be rare at most tables to have more than 1 character than can cast counterspell.

So you have a solution(s) looking for a problem that doesn't exist for the majority of people playing the game. Additionally, this is easily solved by the DM through intelligent encounter design. You claim that you run casters intelligently, then do so. Every caster in the world should know they have the potential to be countered.

Frankly, you should stop playing D&D for a while and try a game like Shadowrun in which problems like this have to be considered by players all of the time.

If you as the DM are worried about player negation, well there is a simple fix for that: Don't give all your casters counterspell. Pretty simple.

Also from your description this is also only a you problem as it is your house rules that allowed partial identification of a spell during the reaction.

Counterspell has a cost in the game. Unless you have some other house rule in effect, Wizards and Sorcerers have at most 3 3rd level spell slots. If your party isn't using those slots for other more important spells you aren't running them through enough challenging encounters to drain their resources. If every encounter starts with all casters having full spell slots and everyone can unleash a torrent of counters, that is a problem with encounter design.

So before bemoaning that counterspell is too powerful, you should really check your design assumptions and make sure that you issues with the spell are a general issue and not a specific issue. As none of the games I have played in, nor any of the games I have watched have ever had this "issue".

If you want to nerf counterspell for your games, that's great. But don't believe this issue exists beyond them.

 

[BigBadDM]

I've been on both sides of the screens though I play as a DM 75% of the time.

As a DM I 'personally' don't have a problem with the spell. It makes the players feel good and elates them like they thwarted this BigBadDM. I like that the player has a 'shining' moment.

Now, on the player's side of the screen--no other spell will generate more animosity toward your character than this spell. Be forewarned if you use this on some 'unexperienced' DMs as they may take a grudge toward your character and put a big old bullseye on you going forward. I believe this has to do with you essentially 'trivializing' encounters with spell casters. I have seen this in a few games I played with DMs who tend to be better role-players than mechanic munchkins (this is a good thing usually). The good role-playing DMs don't like when you ruin their 'planned out' encounters. Mechanical DMs don't seem to care as much. The onus falls just as much on the player as the DM, know your audience before picking spells like this (or the Diviner class).

As a DM,I can still make an encounter feel like a threat--throw in two or three spell casters from time to time. Don't over do it, but does ramp up the danger sometimes. Most encounters are only written with one spell-caster with minor fodder underlings.

Some DMs allow the player to know the know what the opposing caster is casting before counter spelling. Whether this is by some skill check or innate knowledge, this can overbalance the spell at times. It's fine, but I would try without the player knowing for a bit to see if that adds more dramatic action. A lot of this spell comes from fairness... no fudging/changing what spell an enemy cast just because it was counter-spelled.

I also find that there is an over reliance to this spell instead of say: Dispel Magic. While counterspell is better in combat situations, Dispel Magic is way more utilitarian both in and out of combat. Remove that Mage Armor, disarm the magic chest, etc.. Sometimes things that are best to have are not necessarily the most fun in play. I find this the case with 'my character' having counterspell and no longer take the spell. As far as fun, I would rather just have Dispel Magic. See what the enemy caster uses on the party and determine Ad-hoc if I should dispel the effect if applicable. It's not the most optimal obviously--but more enjoyable (at least to me).

And as a last bit I am going to include the last quote. While true there is a 'spell slot' tax there are may ways to get back a third level slot (arcane recovery/metamagic). And when it a fight it is one of the few spells you won't mind casting this at 4th level or even 5th level. In all honestly, I think it plays more as a 4th level spell than a 3rd as far as power curve.

Counterspell has a cost in the game. Unless you have some other house rule in effect, Wizards and Sorcerers have at most 3 3rd level spell slots. If your party isn't using those slots for other more important spells you aren't running them through enough challenging encounters to drain their resources.

 

[cmad1977]

Zero issue with it on either side of the screen. Works as intended.

 

[Maxperson]

@WaterRabbit

So in your experience which isn't a general experience. It has nothing to do with my assumptions. You can just as easily as I look at how common casters that have the possibility of casting counterspell is compared to the number of classes that cannot in general play. It would be rare at most tables to have more than 1 character than can cast counterspell.

Your assumptions are your own, yes.

There are 4 classes that can cast counterpell. Wizards, warlocks, sorcerers and bards. A full 1/3 of all classes. It's not at all rare to have two of those in a group.

So you have a solution(s) looking for a problem that doesn't exist for the majority of people playing the game. Additionally, this is easily solved by the DM through intelligent encounter design. You claim that you run casters intelligently, then do so. Every caster in the world should know they have the potential to be countered.

You do know that if there is a caster in the group that is shut down completely, the group shutting him down will generally win the fight easily, right?

Frankly, you should stop playing D&D for a while and try a game like Shadowrun in which problems like this have to be considered by players all of the time.

Frankly, you should stop making assumptions like this. You are way off base.

If you as the DM are worried about player negation, well there is a simple fix for that: Don't give all your casters counterspell. Pretty simple.

Yeah! Just make it so that any group I put a caster in loses easily!!! That will solve the problem! Dude, don't try to tell me to run casters intelligently and then give me ideas on how to play them unintelligently.

Also from your description this is also only a you problem as it is your house rules that allowed partial identification of a spell during the reaction.

Considering all the likes I've gotten in this thread, it's clearly not only a me problem. I also never said that I have a house rule that allows partial identification of spells during a reaction.

Counterspell has a cost in the game. Unless you have some other house rule in effect, Wizards and Sorcerers have at most 3 3rd level spell slots. If your party isn't using those slots for other more important spells you aren't running them through enough challenging encounters to drain their resources. If every encounter starts with all casters having full spell slots and everyone can unleash a torrent of counters, that is a problem with encounter design.

The cost is trivial compared to the benefit of shutting an enemy caster down.

So before bemoaning that counterspell is too powerful, you should really check your design assumptions and make sure that you issues with the spell are a general issue and not a specific issue. As none of the games I have played in, nor any of the games I have watched have ever had this "issue".

My design assumptions are solid.

Your assumptions are not. You're very bad at assuming. Your assumption that with fully 1/3 of classes able to cast counterspell, it's rare to have two of them in a group is faulty. Your assumption that this is easily solved by encounter design is faulty. Your assumption that I should play a game other than D&D is just plain trash. Your assumption that I would like a game like Shadowrun is pretty lame. I don't like that genre of game. Your assumption that it's a good idea to play my casters stupidly and just let them be shut down was just bad. Your assumption this is only a me problem is factually incorrect. Your assumption that the cost of shutting down an enemy caster completely isn't worth the few resources spent is amusing. Your assumption about my encounter design is actually rather insulting, as well as being very wrong. Your assumption about my "house rule" betrays your inability to read my posts completely.

How about instead of assuming so many things, you actually engage me in discussion. For example, a simple "Hey, would you be interested in playing a game other than D&D?" and "Maybe you'd like Shadowrun." would have gotten you accurate information when I told you no.

 

[rczarnec]

There are 4 classes that can cast counterpell. Wizards, warlocks, sorcerers and bards. A full 1/3 of all classes. It's not at all rare to have two of those in a group.

And at higher levels this can increase a bit more. My tier 3 Eldritch Knight picked it up at 13th since it is in one of his preferred schools.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

And at higher levels this can increase a bit more. My tier 3 Eldritch Knight picked it up at 13th since it is in one of his preferred schools.

Also:
A Redemption Paladin gets it at 9th level
An Arcane Trickster could take it at 14th or 20th level when they are allowed to deviate from the Illusion/Enchantment school requirement.

 

[Gadget]

I agree that Counterspell, as written, is not really needed. I don't see what problem it's trying to solve. It was not part of earlier additions (chainmail references aside) that I can recall. It would probably be a better rule if you could ready a casting of Dispel Magic to counterspell someone. I guess I'm not fond of the negation game.

I do like the Post Xanthanar's ruling that you don't automatically know what spell and what level the opponent is casting; it seems that many where running it this way previously and that took all the risk out of using the spell. Though I suppose every game is different, ymmv.

 

[Garthanos]

I agree that Counterspell, as written, is not really needed. I don't see what problem it's trying to solve. It was not part of earlier additions (chainmail references aside) that I can recall. It would probably be a better rule if you could ready a casting of Dispel Magic to counterspell someone. I guess I'm not fond of the negation game.

I think it was indeed a function of Dispel magic in games after Chainmail.

I think its targeting a flavor of duelling mages... not a problem.

I also think its letting a mage defend their allies in a uniquely wizardly way.

I do like the Post Xanthanar's ruling that you don't automatically know what spell and what level the opponent is casting; it seems that many where running it this way previously and that took all the risk out of using the spell. Though I suppose every game is different, ymmv.

It does make it a gambling game.

 

[Maxperson]

Also:
A Redemption Paladin gets it at 9th level
An Arcane Trickster could take it at 14th or 20th level when they are allowed to deviate from the Illusion/Enchantment school requirement.

Okay then. We now have 4 classes and 3 sub-classes that have access to the spell. Since 3 sub-classes equal a class, we now effectively have 5 classes out of 12 that have access.

 

[Mycroft]

When things come from a long standing edition warring place, it's hard to approach them.

I mean, not playing, DMing, or even actually taking the time to read and understand something, before the bashing, is just terrible.