Coup de Grace and Charge

[DracoSuave]

For melee and for ranged definitions, If something is melee 1, melee touch, ranged X or ranged sight ... you it refers to who you can target.

However, if it has the weapon keyword, it uses the word attack over and over again. It allows you to attack a target within reach of the weapon you're wielding. Thus if you move BEFORE the attack, you need to be within range to make the attack once you attack, not necessarily before. The concept of the "special: before you attack ..." would seem to be part of the exception based design. Just like an interupt can be triggered by something, but happen "before" it [i.e. you can get hit, use the shield spell and thus not get hit], the "special: before you attack ..." is meant to similarly take place before the power that it is part of.

The special is part of using the power. Opportunity Attacks are triggered by power use. If you're using the Special, you're using the power, and the Opportunity Attack takes place before it.

If the special took place before the -power- it would say 'Before you use this power you may...' which is a different story.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not sure I agree with this interpretation. You have to be adjacent when you attack the coup de grace target, yes, but you can use a special Effect of a power to get adjacent before making the attack. Unless you're also suggesting that a rogue with a short sword can't use deft strike to get to an enemy 2 squares away and then attack?

Coup De Grace is a standard action, which can include an attack power.

You can deliver a coup de grace against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any attack power you could normally use against the enemy, including a basic attack.

If the helpless enemy is not adjacent to you, you can't deliver a coup de grace against him. You could use Deft Strike, but not Deft-Strike-as-part-of-a-CDG.

You can only use an attack power as part of a CDG if the enemy is someone you can deliver a CDG to... and if he's not a helpless enemy adjacent to you, he's not someone you can deliver a CDG to.

You could pull it off with Dimensional Charge.

Yeah, that'd work.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, that'd work.

-Hyp.

AND it would look awesome.

BAMF DEAD'D!

 

[WalterKovacs]

The special is part of using the power. Opportunity Attacks are triggered by power use. If you're using the Special, you're using the power, and the Opportunity Attack takes place before it.

If the special took place before the -power- it would say 'Before you use this power you may...' which is a different story.

One question then ... why bother with it being a shift? Since anyone next to you would be able to make OAs anyway ... using a shift to AVOID an OA seems like a waste, you might as well just move since you are provoking anyway. The only benefit being for elves since they could shift into spots they can't move into normally.

 

[DracoSuave]

One question then ... why bother with it being a shift? Since anyone next to you would be able to make OAs anyway ... using a shift to AVOID an OA seems like a waste, you might as well just move since you are provoking anyway. The only benefit being for elves since they could shift into spots they can't move into normally.

Good question. Altho Deft Strike is a rogue at-will, and thusly it's probably used more to get Combat Advantage than to get out of dodge and into Dagger-throwing range.

AND Deft Strike doesn't -shift- you, it -moves- you so it explicitly would provoke anyways.

 

[Hypersmurf]

AND Deft Strike doesn't -shift- you, it -moves- you so it explicitly would provoke anyways.

I think he's referring to Nimble Strike.

And there are still differences between a move and a shift. If the Ranger is wearing Scintillating Armor, for example, his ranged powers do not provoke, so Nimble Strike by itself would not provoke... but the move would, where the shift does not.

If the Ranger is marked by a Fighter, then the shift will trigger a Combat Challenge attack, while if it were a move, it would not; and while the move would provoke an OA, the Fighter probably already used his OA on the ranged-power-in-an-adjacent-square provocation, so the move would be advantageous for the Ranger compared to the shift in this case.

Nimble Strike as written, and Nimble Strike altered for a one square move, behave differently... so asking "Why is it a shift?" isn't really pertinent; it is a shift, because it was written as a shift.

-Hyp.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I think he's referring to Nimble Strike.

And there are still differences between a move and a shift. If the Ranger is wearing Scintillating Armor, for example, his ranged powers do not provoke, so Nimble Strike by itself would not provoke... but the move would, where the shift does not.

If the Ranger is marked by a Fighter, then the shift will trigger a Combat Challenge attack, while if it were a move, it would not; and while the move would provoke an OA, the Fighter probably already used his OA on the ranged-power-in-an-adjacent-square provocation, so the move would be advantageous for the Ranger compared to the shift in this case.

Nimble Strike as written, and Nimble Strike altered for a one square move, behave differently... so asking "Why is it a shift?" isn't really pertinent; it is a shift, because it was written as a shift.

-Hyp.

Yes.

However the question of "why is it a shift" is relevant in terms of RAI because:

(a) It's ranged only ... the melee only power hit and run is designed to avoid taking an OA.

(b) If using the power provokes, instead of that "attack" provoking, using a shift to avoid the OA, the PRIMARY purpose of shifting, is pointless. There are specific exceptions where interactions with magic items or feats or racial abilities make things different ... but ultimately you have a power that lefts you shift to avoid an OA ... but it doesn't actually avoid the OA.

Basically ... it seems in many ways to be a power that THINKS it is doing something it doesn't actually do.

See also: the pact hammer whose property is that it let's you do curse damage on melee attacks ... which you could already do, but someone obiously didn't realize when designing the power.

Talking about RAW ... it shifts because it says it shifts.

Talking about RAI though, it is relevant to ask why.

And, considering that from the initial books to newer books they've found ways to "correct" powers so that "charge as part of the attack" has become "use this power in place of a basic melee attack as part of the charge" means they are still in the process of fixing effects they misworded initially.

By the way, by RAW, you can use this to shift adjacent to someone and then attack without provoking [assuming you weren't adjacent to anyone when you initiated the maneuver, before you shifted], perhaps intending to get prime shot? Since it's using the power, not "attacking", that provokes?

 

[Hypersmurf]

By the way, by RAW, you can use this to shift adjacent to someone and then attack without provoking [assuming you weren't adjacent to anyone when you initiated the maneuver, before you shifted], perhaps intending to get prime shot? Since it's using the power, not "attacking", that provokes?

I'd say yes, with the caveat that it depends on how you read p268.

p271: "If you use a ranged power while adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you"
and p290: "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area
power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy"
both make it clear that the use of a ranged power (like Nimble Strike) in an adjacent square provokes an OA.

p268 uses different wording:
"Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack."

I personally believe that "make a ranged attack" is synonymous with "use a power with the Ranged keyword" in this instance, but if you read it differently, then you might rule that the Ranger who moves adjacent and then takes a shot with his bow is "making a ranged attack" in the adjacent square, even though he was non-adjacent when he initiated the use of the power.

-Hyp.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I'd say yes, with the caveat that it depends on how you read p268.

p271: "If you use a ranged power while adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you"
and p290: "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area
power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy"
both make it clear that the use of a ranged power (like Nimble Strike) in an adjacent square provokes an OA.

p268 uses different wording:
"Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack."

I personally believe that "make a ranged attack" is synonymous with "use a power with the Ranged keyword" in this instance, but if you read it differently, then you might rule that the Ranger who moves adjacent and then takes a shot with his bow is "making a ranged attack" in the adjacent square, even though he was non-adjacent when he initiated the use of the power.

-Hyp.

If nothing else, it does support the idea of Nimble Strike's RAI being that you can shift away and then attack to avoid OA ... since it would work, but only for 268. There does seem to be some confusion amongst the designers/editors, or artifacts left over when they were updating the text but missed some parts of it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If nothing else, it does support the idea of Nimble Strike's RAI being that you can shift away and then attack to avoid OA ... since it would work, but only for 268.

But if you read 268 by itself, and assume that it means when a ranged attack roll is made, and further assume that 271 and 290 are incorrect, then any ranged or area power which does not involve an attack roll will not provoke an OA either.

I can't really accept that 271 and 290 are wrong. The definition of 'area attack', on the other hand, means that 'make an area attack' can be synonymous with 'use an area power' - since any power with the Area keyword is an 'area attack', even if it isn't an attack power - so I can see 268 as saying the same thing as 271 and 290, which doesn't require us to declare errors in text.

The other way to read it is that 268 tells us that an ranged attack roll provokes an OA, and 271 and 290 further tell us that using a ranged power provokes an OA... so Nimble Strike can provoke both when the power is initiated, and also when the ranged attack roll is made.

But unless we're deciding to discard p271 and p290, I can't see a valid reading that doesn't have Nimble Strike provoking when you initiate the power. And if we're discarding rules, we can make anything say whatever we like.

(Or, to phrase it another way - p271 and p290 use completely unambiguous phrasing, while 268 uses the unfortunate word choice of 'attack', which has at least four different uses in 4E. So while there's ambiguity as to what 268 is saying, 271 and 290 clear up the confusion.)

-Hyp.