Coup de grace

[Dausuul]

Just re-read it, and the CDG rule is pretty clear: You can coup de grace an unconscious creature. That's it. "Helpless" is an adjective applied to a creature already established to be unconscious. The second sentence reinforces that you can only do it to an unconscious target.

I think paralyzed foes should also be subject to CDG, myself, and in a proper game I'd house-rule it. For the playtest, of course, I'll run as written.

The interesting question comes when you have a creature that isn't unconscious or paralyzed but is also being held in a position where it is unable to defend itself; the classic example where the villain is holding one of the PCs with a knife to his or her throat, or the above where an executioner is getting ready to chop a victim's head off.

I'm thinking the best way to handle this is to say that such creatures get a Dexterity save. If they succeed, they avoid the coup de grace and maybe get out of whatever position made them vulnerable (this would of course require a bunch more thought and some rules-smithing). Since paralyzed and unconscious creatures auto-fail Dex saves, it works out nicely.

 

[eamon]

Just re-read it, and the CDG rule is pretty clear: You can coup de grace an unconscious creature. That's it. "Helpless" is an adjective applied to a creature already established to be unconscious. The second sentence reinforces that you can only do it to an unconscious target.

I think paralyzed foes should also be subject to CDG, myself, and in a proper game I'd house-rule it. For the playtest, of course, I'll run as written.

Seconded. Or thirded? In any case, this

 

[GSHamster]

Just re-read it, and the CDG rule is pretty clear: You can coup de grace an unconscious creature. That's it. "Helpless" is an adjective applied to a creature already established to be unconscious. The second sentence reinforces that you can only do it to an unconscious target.

But this doesn't make sense with the last line of CDG. You're only unconscious when you're at 0 or lower. So how can you use a CDG to drop someone to zero? If they have more than zero hp, they're conscious, and thus ineligible to CDG. Being asleep is not the same as being unconscious.

In my opinion, there's a typo in the ruleset, and the second instance of "unconscious" is meant to be "helpless". That's the only way I can square the CDG rules working with the last line.

But you're right about playtesting as written. Typos are still bugs.

 

[Stalker0]

No they didn't. The first CDG reduces HP to 0, the second CDG kills.

In other words, they made it kill monsters in one hit (since most monsters are gone at 0 hp), but gave PCs a little extra plot immunity.

Works for me.

 

[frankthedm]

In other words, they made it kill monsters in one hit (since most monsters are gone at 0 hp), but gave PCs a little extra plot immunity.

Works for me.

And not at all for me since it is an obvious and transparent immunity .

 

[GSHamster]

And not at all for me since it is an obvious and transparent immunity .

The rules do specifically state that mighty villains and special NPCs can follow the same rules as PCs. The DM can have them fall unconscious and start dying.

Dead at 0 for monsters is more a shortcut for the DM in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Aaron]

But this doesn't make sense with the last line of CDG. You're only unconscious when you're at 0 or lower.

Well, that's not correct.

The sleep spell, for example, makes the target unconscious.

 

[howandwhy99]

I think the early version of coup de grace came from the assassin's assassination attack. That was 50% chance of successfully killing, required a successful attack, and could only be performed successfully when the assassin held surprise on someone. We used it as an attack, which required a save or die if successful. Even if you made the save the damage could kill you.

Out of combat with helpless foes surprise was not needed. However, attack rolls and saves were still made. If you didn't get them the first time, you could probably just try again. Characters in that situation, when short, round-based time wasn't an issue, could be hand waved to death. Tracking the fiddly time can instead be made a round given average damages and save odds. If there was any chance they could be saved in the next few Turns, I might give them the chance.

5E Coup de Grace looks way, way too powerful as a single round action. I would definitely give it a save and require an attack roll (but with the Dex 0 penalty). Dispatching fallen enemies easily hurts the PCs far more than the NPCs. And it makes the PC-only rule (negative hp) more glaring.

 

[Ranes]

There's no two ways about it: the coup de grace rule states that the creature must be unconscious. But I'm not too worried about it. I think it so clearly defies common sense that this should be the only situation in which a coup de grace could be attempted, that (a) it's easy to house rule for now and (b) won't make it into the final rules worded as it currently is.

I would suspect that, in the end, coup de grace will be circumscribed by a 'helpless' condition met by being paralysed, bound, magically held, stunned, unconscious or similar.

 

[Stalker0]

5E Coup de Grace looks way, way too powerful as a single round action.

This combined with no AOOs for its use (at least not yet), means that Coup de Grace is much much more powerful than in the last two editions. Heck you can move in, kill the guy, and then move back.