Cover and Spellcasting
- Thread starter IndySteve
- Start date
EOL
First Post
I had a DM who did this sort of thing all the time and it was insanely annoying. In this example it's pretty easy to say if you're in the square with 100% cover then the monster has 100% cover against you, so you'll have to move to another square if you want to cast any spells against it.
100% cover is easy to rule on it's cover in increments less than that that I'm not sure about, what about 50% cover? or 75%? Can sorcerer cast spells from behind a chest high wall? Reason would seem to say yes. But what about 90% cover behind an arrow slit? Can the sorcerer cast a fireball through the arrow slit, or something similar. What about casting suggestion?
Personally if the mage has cover at 75% or above I start making it tougher to cast spells, but I don't know of any rule which says that.
100% cover is easy to rule on it's cover in increments less than that that I'm not sure about, what about 50% cover? or 75%? Can sorcerer cast spells from behind a chest high wall? Reason would seem to say yes. But what about 90% cover behind an arrow slit? Can the sorcerer cast a fireball through the arrow slit, or something similar. What about casting suggestion?
Personally if the mage has cover at 75% or above I start making it tougher to cast spells, but I don't know of any rule which says that.
They cannot use the wall for total cover in relation to their target and still cast spells around it.
I can see ruling that they can lean out around the corner to cast spells, but if they lean out far enough to cast the spell, then they are still out that far on their opponents turn. Just make a ruling as to how much cover they are getting from the wall (3/4 or 1/2 most likely), and remember that their opponent can probably move to reduce the cover even further.
Keep in mind that even though you are taking turns doing your actions, they are still happening during the same 6 second period.
I can see ruling that they can lean out around the corner to cast spells, but if they lean out far enough to cast the spell, then they are still out that far on their opponents turn. Just make a ruling as to how much cover they are getting from the wall (3/4 or 1/2 most likely), and remember that their opponent can probably move to reduce the cover even further.
Keep in mind that even though you are taking turns doing your actions, they are still happening during the same 6 second period.
Not legal.
The Sorc could have 90% cover (stick his head out only), but there is nothing that allows you to do a pop-up attack with spells in D&D.
Think of it this way, the spellcaster had to move in order to get line of sight on the monster. He then cast a spell. There is nothing that allows him to move again that round, he would need another partial action to do that.
An archer with the 'Shot on the Run' feat could use a missle or thrown weapon in the way described.
Someone hasted could also do this, getting a full round attack and another attack before ducking back behind cover.
The Sorc could have 90% cover (stick his head out only), but there is nothing that allows you to do a pop-up attack with spells in D&D.
Think of it this way, the spellcaster had to move in order to get line of sight on the monster. He then cast a spell. There is nothing that allows him to move again that round, he would need another partial action to do that.
An archer with the 'Shot on the Run' feat could use a missle or thrown weapon in the way described.
Someone hasted could also do this, getting a full round attack and another attack before ducking back behind cover.
Magus Coeruleus
Explorer
Around corners
Firing missiles from around corners is a standard part of both fantasy and actual combat. But fair's fair--if someone can shoot from around a corner, they can be shot at.
The houserule I use is that you can shoot from around the corner, gaining 50% cover. You can't move before and after to get 100% cover barring special things like haste or shot on the run. I chose 50% because that's the cover bonus you get from fighting from around a tree, or around a corner in melee. To use this tactic, you need to have the movement to put you in the 5' square just past the corner (i.e. the one out into the open if you're coming from behind the corner, or the one behind the corner if you're coming from out in the open). You actually place your figure halfway between the two squares to signify the position, but for all other purposes (future movement, attacks against you, sharing spaces, etc.), you're considered to be in the square behind the corner.
My players and I have been satisfied with this for archer shoot-outs, and while it's never come up for spellcasting, I don't see why the same thing wouldn't work.
Firing missiles from around corners is a standard part of both fantasy and actual combat. But fair's fair--if someone can shoot from around a corner, they can be shot at.
The houserule I use is that you can shoot from around the corner, gaining 50% cover. You can't move before and after to get 100% cover barring special things like haste or shot on the run. I chose 50% because that's the cover bonus you get from fighting from around a tree, or around a corner in melee. To use this tactic, you need to have the movement to put you in the 5' square just past the corner (i.e. the one out into the open if you're coming from behind the corner, or the one behind the corner if you're coming from out in the open). You actually place your figure halfway between the two squares to signify the position, but for all other purposes (future movement, attacks against you, sharing spaces, etc.), you're considered to be in the square behind the corner.
My players and I have been satisfied with this for archer shoot-outs, and while it's never come up for spellcasting, I don't see why the same thing wouldn't work.
kreynolds
First Post
Hey everybody. The question was whether or not you could pull this off by the rules. The answer is not a chance in hell. So before everyone gets all creative about how you should be able to quickdraw a magic missile or launch a fireball from inside your pants pocket, someone should restart this thread in the house rules forum. Just wanna make sure everyone is on the same page. 
kreynolds said:Hey everybody. The question was whether or not you could pull this off by the rules. The answer is not a chance in hell. So before everyone gets all creative about how you should be able to quickdraw a magic missile or launch a fireball from inside your pants pocket, someone should restart this thread in the house rules forum. Just wanna make sure everyone is on the same page.
Nothing in the rules stops you from positioning yourself at the corner of a building so that it provides cover as you cast spells.
Nothing in the rules stops you from moving farther behind the building after you cast so that you have total cover.
What the rules don't allow is for you to do both on the same round.
kreynolds
First Post
Caliban said:
Sometimes its better to ask "should I" rather than "can I". This is simple. I would give someone a cover bonus and allow them to cast a spell on a creature beyond the wall if the wall did not fully extend to the edge of the square the caster is standing in. In other words, if the wall was short. But it's rediculous to allow a caster to "lean out, fire, and lean back in". There was a good reason they didn't include that.
Currently, the closest you can come to this is "take a 5-foot step, cast your spell, use your haste partial action to move back behind cover".
kreynolds said:
Hmm... I'm absolutely sure I never said that they can "lean out, fire, and lean back in", in fact I'm pretty sure I said the opposite. I'll try to rephrase it, since you seem to be having trouble understanding me:
I stated that they could only do one or the other on their turn: Position themselves so that they have cover (Lean out and cast) or cast and then move behind cover (cast and lean back in).
They just can't do both on the same turn, unless they are hasted (as you pointed out).
TrizzlWizzl
First Post
IndySteve said:
This happens all the time in my game. I rule that the caster can lean out around the corner, but in leaning out only gets 3/4 cover. So if a monster has a readied action triggered by the PC casting the spell, he still gets to attack as the spell is being cast (possibly disrupting the spell).
Also, I often have smarter NPC archers swing around the cowering caster's flank to negate the cover.
Most of the time in this situation, however, the caster's party members are between him and the monster, so ranged touch attacks are sorta risky (the wizard in my party just created a wand of magic missles [7th] using maximize spell, though, so I might see this tactic used a lot more)
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